Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

[palbert]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Tropical,

If you wish to read it, our critique of Lappe's work is here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:vitamind:cancer


Dr. Woodson,

You get a lot of it right.

"As I understand the thesis, there are numerous micro-organisms that live within our cells. There is a long list of these provided in the papers and presentations on Dr. Marshall's web site. Virtually all those named are not ones I recognize as common human pathogens. Is this correct?"

The volume and diversity of bacteria in the human body must be appreciated. According to a recent National Institutes of Health (NIH) estimate, 90% of cells in the human body are bacterial, fungal, or otherwise non-human. Your salivary microbiome has 500+ species of bacteria. Hip joints have been shown to contain hydrothermal vent eubacteria, which have previously been shown to exist only in underwater heat vents. That said, we don't put much stock in species. We would point to the work of Doolittle and others, who has argued we believe that our traditional understanding of "species" is outmoded. Bacteria exchange DNA so promiscuously that it is often hard to define what constitutes a bacterial species. Read more here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:microbiota

"The thesis goes on to state that these intracellular [intra not inter - I changed the other instances of this word in your other comments] non-human organisms produce substances, ligands, that affect the VDR in a way that results in its inability to function normally. Is this correct? This impairment of the VDR by these bacterial substances is the proximal cause of a variety of human diseases including several common auto-immune diseases. Is this correct?"

Yes, that's what we're putting forth. Although we might put HIV and EBV in this category given that they have also been shown to downregulate the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR).

"The Marshall Protocol is a treatment for this condition that uses very low dose antibiotics used in sequence and in combination beginning with minocycline [sp], then azithromycin [sp] and clindamycin [sp] that is designed to kill the intracellular bacteria slowly. This is beneficial since killing them rapidly could or does result in an exacerbation of the manifest disease do to contamination of the human cell interior with high levels of dead and degenerating bacterial organisms. Is this correct?"

We have found that pulsed low dosing is the only way to address these treatment-resistant microbes. The rationale for this approach is here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:protocol:mp_antibiotics:dosing

The only thing I would add to this comment is that the only way to kill these chronic pathogens is slowly. We know now other way to kill these chronic (as opposed to acute pathogens). Killing bacteria generates a self-limiting reaction we refer to as immunopathology. Immunopathology involves the release of cytokines and the bioavailability of endotoxins. Read more here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:protocol:immunopathology

"Some intracellular bacteria are beneficial while others are pathologic to the human host cell. Is this correct?"

As far as we're concerned, that remains to be seen. One reason I could give you for questioning the friendliness/benefit of any single bacteria is horizontal gene transfer, a common occurrence in which microbes swap DNA:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:horizontal_gene

HGT is so prolific that it is rather easy for friendly strains to pick up pathogenic characteristics. Another point I'd like to make is that we try to look at disease through the lens of immunopathology. If you give a person a substance such as vitamin D or a bolus of bacteria such as a probiotics supplement and the person's symptoms improve, why did those symptoms improve? We would argue that it's because few intracellular and other bacteria are being eradicated. In the case of probiotics, we would say that, at best, the supplements distract the immune response from fighting the intracellular pathogens. If you look at end-stage patients who are given probiotics, those supplements actually increase morbidity:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:othertreatments:probiotics


"Once the intracellular bacteria are cleared from the cell, then the VDR is freed from the pathologic affects of their ligands and becomes free to return to its normal function. Is this correct? Freeing the VDR of the pathologic influence of the intracellular bacteria results in remission and ultimately cure of the autoimmune disease caused by the infection. Is this correct?"

Yes.

"The Marshall Protocol includes the administration of Bencar to patients treated with it because this ARB, approved by the US FDA for treatment of high blood pressure has the interesting property of occupying the VDR as an antagonist. This therefore provides the patient undergoing the Marshall Protocol with the benefits of VDR stimulation without resort to use of vitamin D3 supplements that leads to formation of 25 OH vit D3 which the thesis proposes results in feedback down regulation of the VDR, an event that exacerbates the underlying disorder. Is this correct?"

That's right. Among the ARBs, Benicar alone activates the VDR. In fact, there wold be no Marshall Protocol without Benicar. You can give the same pulsed low-dose antibiotics to a patient without Benicar and you do not get the tell-tale bacterial die-off reaction (which as you read previously, is called immunopathology). We have discovered that patients needs regular (3-4 times daily) doses of Benicar to knock the ligands off the VDR.

Best,
Paul

 

[cartski]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

How timely! This data was released on 2Jul2009 just in time for our discussion or was it because of our discussion?

Hmm - FT's following is growin by leaps and bounds ;

The government already has this data and in fact has had it for over a year but has not acted on it.

I've talked with Stats Canada researchers, analysts etc. I'm not ready to assign to them any culpable conduct. Check the survey date and the yesterdays release dates - my bet is that this time period is well within the normal range, if not a bit shorter, for compilation and analysis. Also, the Daily has highly regimented release dates on its subjects - this release may have been planned a very long time ago.

Since they have this data for "all Canadians" it would be of interest to hear from them what the average 25 OH vit D3 levels are among the First Nations peoples? How does their vitamin D levels compare with other Canadians and if it is significantly lower, what plans do they have to remedy the problem and when do they plan to do so?

The survey size is only 2600 people, although that is claimed to be a representative sample for all Canadians. I'm not knowledgeable enough abut stats and large surveys to know if that's good enough for segmented data. Doesn't make sense, though. If Stats Canada's surveys were exhaustive, there would not be a need for de novo epi research, and that clearly is not the case. This data creates a baseline, as they claimed - a starting point for further researchers to build upon.

It may be possible for researchers to gain direct access to the survey data by contacting Stats Canada directly. My bet, and hope, is that they're already fielding many such requests.

I agree - a course of action needs to be decided and implemented on this matter within the next 12 weeks - before the start of the next wave.

J.

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Interesting. The Marshall idea is counterintuitive.

Maybe someone can run the CFR of swine flu for Florida vs. a location that has very little sunlight. This might be an interesting comparison.

We have a very large and extensive forum regarding traditional treatments as these are inexpensive, widely available, and proven throughout the history of man.

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=164

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Thank you for this recommendation Gratt - (my bolding)

"All Canadians need to consider beginning vitamin D3 supplementation of at least 5,000iu daily and should not wait until their government tells them to do so. The government already has this data and in fact has had it for over a year but has not acted on it.

Since they have this data for "all Canadians" it would be of interest to hear from them what the average 25 OH vit D3 levels are among the First Nations peoples? How does their vitamin D levels compare with other Canadians and if it is significantly lower, what plans do they have to remedy the problem and when do they plan to do so?

Time is of the essence when it comes to vitamin D.

Grattan Woodson, MD"

 

[AlaskaDenise]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Interesting. The Marshall idea is counterintuitive.

Maybe someone can run the CFR of swine flu for Florida vs. a location that has very little sunlight. This might be an interesting comparison.

My questions about Vitamin D and cancer were for this reason - Alaska's leading cause of death is cancer, and not by a slim margin. Most of the population is at about 59-60 North.

Any comparisons regarding swine flu may not be accurate until after a "cycle", which in this case would be what? - the out-so-season summer northern hemisphere outbreak (which should end at the normal beginning of seasonal flu), or after the normal flu season for either the southern or northern hemisphere?, etc.

.

 

[the doctor]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Hmm - FT's following is growin by leaps and bounds ;



I've talked with Stats Canada researchers, analysts etc. I'm not ready to assign to them any culpable conduct. Check the survey date and the yesterdays release dates - my bet is that this time period is well within the normal range, if not a bit shorter, for compilation and analysis. Also, the Daily has highly regimented release dates on its subjects - this release may have been planned a very long time ago.


J.

I think you make good points Cartski. I also agree that this agency seems to be simply providing the facts as they see them. I did think their comment on what levels of vitamin D were healthy was not known is not accurate. Levels below 20ng/ml (50 nmol/l) are now considered to be vitamin D deficient, those between 20ng/ml and 32ng/ml (50nmol/l to 80nmol/l) as being vitamin D insufficient and only those >32ng/ml or 80nmol/l as being vitamin sufficient with respect to bone health.

For immune health, 25 OH vit D3 levels need to be >50ng/ml or 125nmol/l.
The upper physiologic serum level of 25 OH vit D3 is about 80ng/ml or 200nmol/l.

The toxic threshold for 25 OH vit D3 is probably around 120ng/ml or 300nmol/l because at this level, even this weak form of vitamin D can stimulate intestinal calcium absorption. To get this level of 25 OH D3 would require a total intake (sun plus supplements) of >30,000iu Vitamin D3 per day for at least two months.

Since Canada is a sun-staved nation for a majority of the year, and the average Canadian's vitamin D levels is within the "insufficient" diagnostic category, a public health policy that promoted Vitamin D Health for All Canadians that aimed for a supplement level of 5,000iu per day would be reasonable.

As for term vitamin having the misfortune of being translated as "make you fat" in the aboriginal language, this may be interpreted pejoratively only be someone from our culture. Why? As I recall within the aboriginal culture having a fat wife and children in the past was seen as a sign of wealth and prestigue. The mark of a hunter or leader that was so skilled he could bring home enough game to fed his family well enough for them to become fat was a great distinction especially in a culture where starvation was the driving evolutionary force. Of course, aboriginal girls and boys brought up on TV and our cultures obsession with slimness and youth might have become as indoctrinated as our own children have become by this hog wash. If this is the case, then give Vitamin D a new name or a brand name is you will; something like "Long Healthy and Happy Life" will due nicely I think.

What's more, it is clear that the Vitamin D3 could be given once a month as a 150,000iu dose or even once a quarter as a 450,000iu dose. This is an established practice called Soss Therapy in Germany meaning "to bump" the vitamin D dose up. This dose, 450,000iu of vitamin D3 is an amazingly small 11.25mg that could easily fit into a small sesame seed oil filled capsule.

The cost of this program would be very small, pennies per quarter for the vitamin D3 needed for each Canadian but the benefits, well the benefits in health savings alone would likely be billions of Canadian dollars saved in direct health expenditures and more billions in a reduced rate of worker productivity loss and premature death due to vitamin D preventable diseases.

Grattan Woodson, MD

 

[cartski]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

What's more, it is clear that the Vitamin D3 could be given once a month as a 150,000iu dose or even once a quarter as a 450,000iu dose. This is an established practice called Soss Therapy in Germany meaning "to bump" the vitamin D dose up. This dose, 450,000iu of vitamin D3 is an amazingly small 11.25mg that could easily fit into a small sesame seed oil filled capsule.

I can't but wonder that if there are well established treatment therapies in other countries, the case control studies must have been done to evaluate the effect of supplementation on persons with chronic diseases?

As well, in this very interesting debate, I still must come back to the title of the thread - Cytokine Storm & Vit D relationship. Is not the issue how that storm develops and how vit D. could affect it? What's the microbiology in that situation, and the role of vitD then?

Or perhaps I've just missed something (likely).

J.

 

[AlaskaDenise]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

I still must come back to the title of the thread - Cytokine Storm & Vit D relationship. Is not the issue how that storm develops and how vit D. could affect it?

Perhaps the only way we can evaluate that at this point, is to know about the lifestyles/occupations of people who's flu progressed to a cytokine storm. Group those with/without extensive sun exposure and then subgroups by presence of underlying conditions.

Like Dr. Chan said, this new influenza is a giant experiment where we are all participants.

.

 

[the doctor]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Tropical,

If you wish to read it, our critique of Lappe's work is here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:vitamind:cancer


Dr. Woodson,

You get a lot of it right.

"As I understand the thesis, there are numerous micro-organisms that live within our cells. There is a long list of these provided in the papers and presentations on Dr. Marshall's web site. Virtually all those named are not ones I recognize as common human pathogens. Is this correct?"

The volume and diversity of bacteria in the human body must be appreciated. According to a recent National Institutes of Health (NIH) estimate, 90% of cells in the human body are bacterial, fungal, or otherwise non-human. Your salivary microbiome has 500+ species of bacteria. Hip joints have been shown to contain hydrothermal vent eubacteria, which have previously been shown to exist only in underwater heat vents. That said, we don't put much stock in species. We would point to the work of Doolittle and others, who has argued we believe that our traditional understanding of "species" is outmoded. Bacteria exchange DNA so promiscuously that it is often hard to define what constitutes a bacterial species. Read more here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:microbiota

"The thesis goes on to state that these intracellular [intra not inter - I changed the other instances of this word in your other comments] non-human organisms produce substances, ligands, that affect the VDR in a way that results in its inability to function normally. Is this correct? This impairment of the VDR by these bacterial substances is the proximal cause of a variety of human diseases including several common auto-immune diseases. Is this correct?"

Yes, that's what we're putting forth. Although we might put HIV and EBV in this category given that they have also been shown to downregulate the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR).

"The Marshall Protocol is a treatment for this condition that uses very low dose antibiotics used in sequence and in combination beginning with minocycline [sp], then azithromycin [sp] and clindamycin [sp] that is designed to kill the intracellular bacteria slowly. This is beneficial since killing them rapidly could or does result in an exacerbation of the manifest disease do to contamination of the human cell interior with high levels of dead and degenerating bacterial organisms. Is this correct?"

We have found that pulsed low dosing is the only way to address these treatment-resistant microbes. The rationale for this approach is here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:protocol:mp_antibiotics:dosing

The only thing I would add to this comment is that the only way to kill these chronic pathogens is slowly. We know now other way to kill these chronic (as opposed to acute pathogens). Killing bacteria generates a self-limiting reaction we refer to as immunopathology. Immunopathology involves the release of cytokines and the bioavailability of endotoxins. Read more here:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:protocol:immunopathology

"Some intracellular bacteria are beneficial while others are pathologic to the human host cell. Is this correct?"

As far as we're concerned, that remains to be seen. One reason I could give you for questioning the friendliness/benefit of any single bacteria is horizontal gene transfer, a common occurrence in which microbes swap DNA:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:horizontal_gene

HGT is so prolific that it is rather easy for friendly strains to pick up pathogenic characteristics. Another point I'd like to make is that we try to look at disease through the lens of immunopathology. If you give a person a substance such as vitamin D or a bolus of bacteria such as a probiotics supplement and the person's symptoms improve, why did those symptoms improve? We would argue that it's because few intracellular and other bacteria are being eradicated. In the case of probiotics, we would say that, at best, the supplements distract the immune response from fighting the intracellular pathogens. If you look at end-stage patients who are given probiotics, those supplements actually increase morbidity:
http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:othertreatments:probiotics


"Once the intracellular bacteria are cleared from the cell, then the VDR is freed from the pathologic affects of their ligands and becomes free to return to its normal function. Is this correct? Freeing the VDR of the pathologic influence of the intracellular bacteria results in remission and ultimately cure of the autoimmune disease caused by the infection. Is this correct?"

Yes.

"The Marshall Protocol includes the administration of Bencar to patients treated with it because this ARB, approved by the US FDA for treatment of high blood pressure has the interesting property of occupying the VDR as an antagonist. This therefore provides the patient undergoing the Marshall Protocol with the benefits of VDR stimulation without resort to use of vitamin D3 supplements that leads to formation of 25 OH vit D3 which the thesis proposes results in feedback down regulation of the VDR, an event that exacerbates the underlying disorder. Is this correct?"

That's right. Among the ARBs, Benicar alone activates the VDR. In fact, there wold be no Marshall Protocol without Benicar. You can give the same pulsed low-dose antibiotics to a patient without Benicar and you do not get the tell-tale bacterial die-off reaction (which as you read previously, is called immunopathology). We have discovered that patients needs regular (3-4 times daily) doses of Benicar to knock the ligands off the VDR.

Best,
Paul

Thanks for your reply to my questions and yes you are correct, I did mean intracellular meaning that the thesis under discussion has at its heart the notion that there are a large number of bacteria that live within the cells of the human body and that these bacteria produce substances that bind the VDR and cause immune dysfunction that results in disease on the marco level like auto-immune disease.

To underscore your point you said "The volume and diversity of bacteria in the human body must be appreciated. According to a recent National Institutes of Health (NIH) estimate, 90% of cells in the human body are bacterial, fungal, or otherwise non-human".

Well lets examine this a little closer. The statement from the NIH says nothing about these microbes being intracellular but rather being within or upon the body. The vast majority of these are in the intestinal tract where they are in symbiosis with us. The same is true within the mouth and upon the skin and within the vagina. We call these bacteria and fungi "normal flora" because we can live with them without becoming sick from them as long as there is a balance within our bodies etc. We feed them and they protect us from pathogens that would make us sick if they occupied the same nitch. This is a complex and fascinating topic and yes, probiotic therapy works to restore the proper balance of normal flora to an intestine that has an imbalance of healthy to unhealthy microbes.

IMO, you and Dr. Marshall are using this statement by the NIH out of context to indicate that it supports the linchpin of your thesis that there are intracellular bacteria that cause many diseases. In my opinion, the NIH statement says nothing of the kind but rather is referring to the normal flora described above. Now there are some exceptions as discussed below but what is important to note is that all these exceptions are viral not bacterial.

There are viruses that live within the human cell, for instance the herpes and human papilloma families, HIV and others. These viruses are well known pathogens. We have known about them for many years. We have identified their presence within the cell with electron microscopy. We have retrieved their DNA and RNA from within the cells they infect and sequenced their genes and can even make functional copies of whole virons.

The point I am making here is that these virons are very tiny; much smaller than bacteria yet we have been able to find evidence of chronic virally infected cells and can even find tiny snippets of viral DNA called plasmids that have become interlaced with our DNA or is sometimes floating around in the cytoplasm of the cell which is just a tiny piece of a virus. What we have not been able to find are cells infected with a large number of bacteria, which are many times larger that these viruses and have tons more DNA. So, where are they hiding?

Frankly, and please correct me if I am wrong, I am not aware of any disease or condition where free living bacteria have been found within the human cell as you propose.

Have these microbes been recovered from infected cells and cultured?

If so, could you describe to us their properties?

How are they cultured, upon what media, do they have special growth requirements, are they facilitative anaerobes for instance since they live within the cell in a low O2 environment but not one that is anaerobic?

I am also unaware of the evidence for the ligands the intracellular bacteria are purported to produce in the thesis that bind the VDR. Have any of these ligands been recovered from an infected cell and characterized biochemically and sequenced?

Have you been able to create them In-silico? If so, what are their 3 dimensional structure and where do the bind the VDR?

Is the binding competitive, strong, or weak?

It is reversible or irreversible?

Once bound is the VDR permanently impaired or structurally altered by the ligand?


Thanks,

GW

 

[prepdeb]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Celebrity Montel Williams has had MS for many years. He takes vitamin D3 as part of his regimen.

Excerpt from article about Montel Williams and his regimen.

Full article at http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2009/jul2009_Montel-Williams_01.htm

Williams also recognized that he had probably been having MS symptoms for 20 years without realizing it and without ever receiving a proper diagnosis. As a decorated former naval intelligence officer, Williams, a graduate of the Naval Academy, remembers being one of a hundred men who received a faulty diphtheria-typhoid shot in 1980 that accidentally gave him 20 to 30 times the prescribed dose.

?I became immediately sick,? he says, ?And was taken to the hospital. I went blind in my left eye and was spastic in my left leg,? but none of the doctors suspected MS, which at that time was thought to be mainly a disease of Caucasian women over 30. His symptoms abated, but over the next two decades, Williams continued to experience bouts of pain, weakness, twitching, and vision problems, none of which was ever correctly diagnosed. Today, it is known that an estimated 250,000 to 350,000 Americans have MS, most who are diagnosed between the ages of 20 and 40. But it is still unknown whether the shot Williams received is directly connected to his condition.

A Plan For Optimal Health
Williams describes his health regimen as a ?Life Extension-type program.? It includes a menu of carefully chosen supplements, replacement hormones, a diet rich in fruits and vegetables, a vigorous exercise program, and daily conscious efforts to cultivate positive thoughts and actions. The results have been just short of miraculous.
?I happen to supplement,? explains Williams, ?Because I have learned that there are supplements I need to balance my body. There is enough anecdotal and written material out there about the effects of some on neurological disease, so I?m going to take them.? Williams? supplements include vitamin D3, magnesium, DHEA, vitamin B12, iron, zinc, aloe vera, pregnenolone, DHA, and DIM.

 

[tropical]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

#246:
"supplements I need to balance my body"

Usualy, to balance, means the supplements must be added in quantities which inducted the body measurable parameters to fit the normal range levels, or not trespassing them.

That presumpted an very precise lab checking of the initial, and the subsequent checkings result.
So, taking supplements in high doses, without the above premises - which probably will not be all accomplished prior to intentional addition of vitamin D, could harm the body.

If the intention was to beat the flu related damages by an preventive intake of high additional quantities of vitamins, versus an naturaly intake by food only, what if such additional intake during months of pandemic transmissions, harm the bodies of people which body have balanced, normal range, parameters?
"Food additionals" compounds are not officialy suggested by the health estab, so they are used by personal risk and decision.

 

[prepdeb]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Tropical,

I realize that Montel Williams' situation is unique in that he has a panel of doctors who are continually monitoring his condition.
My point in posting that article is that MS is an auto-immune disease and his regimen includes vitamin D3 supplements.

He is still doing well 10 years after his diagnosis and 7 years beyond the diagnosing doctors prediction that he would be in a wheelchair.

I didn't mean to imply that any or all of us can or should adopt his regimen.

 

[tropical]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

It's ok prepdeb,

I am also thinking that there are many natural existing compounds which can help, many times improving or resolving the illness.

I want to point only that it is dificult to the ordinary people, locate their metabolic deficiences precisely, and take the exact remedies, because the official medicine did not include them into the standard official treatments, as they don't include many other kind of things.

So, because of an overpopulation of studies and counter-studies, it became dificult to decide.
And more, with an interuption in the pharmaceutic chain of distribution, because pandemic shortness, having adequate additional compounds for a year, with no lab checkings about, seems an pretty individual decision.

Now, if everybody can take such large doses of vitamines, not debalanced or ruin the body, and be spared of flu damages, it's another story. I shall be glade if this is the case.
But is it?

Some says that when droping in vitamine pills, only a fraction than realy can be used by the body.

I don't think that it is usualy practice that you can got such non-officialy GP prescribed vitamins as shots.

Frankly, looking the various immune-enhancing pills, vitamins, food additionals, etc., it will be hard to pick the right solution, or maybe not ...

Tropical,

I realize that Montel Williams' situation is unique in that he has a panel of doctors who are continually monitoring his condition.
My point in posting that article is that MS is an auto-immune disease and his regimen includes vitamin D3 supplements.

He is still doing well 10 years after his diagnosis and 7 years beyond the diagnosing doctors prediction that he would be in a wheelchair.

I didn't mean to imply that any or all of us can or should adopt his regimen.

 

[the doctor]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

I can't but wonder that if there are well established treatment therapies in other countries, the case control studies must have been done to evaluate the effect of supplementation on persons with chronic diseases?

As well, in this very interesting debate, I still must come back to the title of the thread - Cytokine Storm & Vit D relationship. Is not the issue how that storm develops and how vit D. could affect it? What's the microbiology in that situation, and the role of vitD then?

Or perhaps I've just missed something (likely).

J.

You raise and interesting point. Soss therapy was practiced in the German Democratic Republic, communist East Germany for many years. They gave infants and children 150,000iu of D2 on a regular basis. If the West Germans did not follow this same practice and I do not know if they did or not, then comparing the incidence or prevalence of the disorders that we now link to vitamin D between the people of these two nations would be of interest.

Those in the East and West of Germany are of course very similar in both genetic background and culture so that would make the two groups pretty similar. There might have been some differences between the two related to caloric intake and composition of the diet in favor of the West Germans but other than this confounder, they should be otherwise well matched.

Maybe gsgs can look into this for us since he is on the scene and may well be able to access the data given that it is almost certainly archived in German.

GW

 

[the doctor]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

Perhaps the only way we can evaluate that at this point, is to know about the lifestyles/occupations of people who's flu progressed to a cytokine storm. Group those with/without extensive sun exposure and then subgroups by presence of underlying conditions.

Like Dr. Chan said, this new influenza is a giant experiment where we are all participants.

.

While the debate regarding the thesis as proposed by Dr's Marshall and Albert may appear to be off topic, IMO it is not. If they are correct in their view, the supplementation with vitamin D may not only of no benefit but in fact be harmful.

This is why I think it is important that we attempt to explore this issue as fully as we can. What's more, their POV is the only one I can find that challenges the idea that supplementation is healthy. Their group has spent considerable time and effort researching this issue and have come to a unique opinion that is 180 degrees from the consensus with regard to supplementation. What makes their view interesting to me is that they are very conversant with the topic, consider the same literature that mainstream people do and yet have come to a different conclusion.

Debate of this nature is a healthy exercise for all involved. It helps to broaden ones views and stimulates those involved to dig deeper into the issue in an attempt to search for the facts.

It is of interest to me for instance that what Dr's Marshall and Albert are saying is not different from what we have been saying. What is different is their view of why the VDR is dysfunctional and their approach to correcting this dysfunction. So, the goals of both the consensus opinion and the thesis under discussion are exactly the same, free the VDR to do its job. What is different is how to do this.

GW

 

[AlaskaDenise]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

I didn't mean it was off topic, but rather that we need answers sooner than later. It reminds me of a guideline I used in designing IT systems - my goal was to get the right information to the right place and the right time. Not only are providers not getting desperately needed current treatment outcome data, but so much of the scientific research won't have usable conclusions until after this pandemic.

That being said, FT seems to be functioning as a place to review the pros and cons of alternative treatments. Now, if the right people will just utilize the results.

.

 

[the doctor]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

It's ok prepdeb,

I am also thinking that there are many natural existing compounds which can help, many times improving or resolving the illness.

I want to point only that it is dificult to the ordinary people, locate their metabolic deficiences precisely, and take the exact remedies, because the official medicine did not include them into the standard official treatments, as they don't include many other kind of things.

So, because of an overpopulation of studies and counter-studies, it became dificult to decide.
And more, with an interuption in the pharmaceutic chain of distribution, because pandemic shortness, having adequate additional compounds for a year, with no lab checkings about, seems an pretty individual decision.

Now, if everybody can take such large doses of vitamines, not debalanced or ruin the body, and be spared of flu damages, it's another story. I shall be glade if this is the case.
But is it?

Some says that when droping in vitamine pills, only a fraction than realy can be used by the body.

I don't think that it is usualy practice that you can got such non-officialy GP prescribed vitamins as shots.

Frankly, looking the various immune-enhancing pills, vitamins, food additionals, etc., it will be hard to pick the right solution, or maybe not ...

I understand your concern Tropical and also how hard it is for just plain folks, even really smart people like you have trying to understand the medical data that is published in the press.

It is very confusing.

What I can tell you though is that while coming to grips with the data, especially conflicting data is not easy, it can be done. What is needed though is the expertize to evaluate the study where the data has been reported, to have an understanding of the methods used in the study and the experience to be able to determine if these methods were adequate or biased.

Once you have these skills, it is necessary to be able to interpret the new data in the context of the data on the same subject that has been published previously.

To do this properly requires a lifetime of study and devotion to the particular topic being discussed.

So given this very steep and long learning curve, is it any wonder that the public is easily confused by new data or in fact can be mislead by the information reported?

In the US, 10% of our news concerns medical issues. The public is very interested in medicine but knows very little about it. The media produces so many health related stories because the public is interested in them and that affects their ratings and hence their ad rates.

Medical reporters do a pretty good job in the US overall but not always. Doctors interviewed by these reporters often spin the story in the same way political operatives do when attempting to shape public opinion. While it may be ethical for a political spin-master to do this given that the public expects them to do so, it is not ethical for doctors to do so IMO because the public expects doctors to place the interests of public health above their own interests. While this is the case most of the time, it is not always so.

What are regular people to do then? Well, you need to find a good doctor, one that is both smart and that practices continuous education in his or her field since medicine changes so quickly that if a doctor does not devote considerable time and effort to re-education on an almost daily basis he or she will rapidly fall behind.

I know it is hard to find a good doctor today and regrettably the way things are going across the globe, this will become more and more difficult in the future than it is now. However, having a trustworthy diligent doctor who has your best interests at heart is the very best way to navigate all this seemingly discordant and voluminous medical data. If you can find a doctor like this, do whatever you can to stay with him or her because they are rare today and will become even more so in the future.

Good luck,

GW

 

[tropical]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

#254:...

Thank you GW, but my intention was to point more to an paralel fact:

this vitaminD debate, as I'm read it, is to filtered out if it can be used as an shielding, large reacheable, compound to fight the pandemic flu in the absence of vaccines and feaseable antivirals.

Now, apart the individual more or less confortability with sci readings, or med buddy scenarios, the vast majority of worldwide population (the supposed vitaminD recipients), will probably not scratch their had with evaluating this matter, especialy when they are stil barely informed about the actual, or incipient, pandemic no-give-you-any-med danger.

The part of population actualy relying on various compounds traditionaly (China, etc) will probably ask its local herb/... provider, the others will ask the pharmacists, or their GP/specs, but most of them will aspects an firm answer from the health estabs advisors: is it the vitaminD to be taken, or not?

I don't see at the moment, that the above cited professionals are sure if this vitamin, or other, must be taken to slowdown serious flu efects, and especialy I should not expect that they will trumpet it to their audience, watching how the pandemic downplaying is going on everywhere.

So, apart our members and readers, who will individualy decide after evaluating the posts, even if here pop out a conclusion that taking additional massive doses of vitaminD is neccessary, how this will be enlarged to the worldwide population as an medical advice to them?
The same for the statins, or whatsoever.

To simplify: after 3 (or 6) months of pandemic, even some elementary measures in the hotzones, as reducing unneccessary gatherings, or wearing masks at smaller close rooms, were not wanted to be enforced by the health estabs widely,
why than thinking now that any idea about statins, vitamins, or whatsoever, will be aired and accomplished officialy by the health sector to the masses?

 

[the doctor]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

#254:...

Thank you GW, but my intention was to point more to an paralel fact:

this vitaminD debate, as I'm read it, is to filtered out if it can be used as an shielding, large reacheable, compound to fight the pandemic flu in the absence of vaccines and feaseable antivirals.

[snip]

So, apart our members and readers, who will individualy decide after evaluating the posts, even if here pop out a conclusion that taking additional massive doses of vitaminD is neccessary, how this will be enlarged to the worldwide population as an medical advice to them?
The same for the statins, or whatsoever.

Yes, I agree with you. No matter how great, cheap, widely available, and easy to take vitamin D may be as a way to reduce risk for influenza and its complications, it is not likely to do the masses who need it most any good unless they hear about it.

For example, look at the situation in Canada's First Nations. There have been study after study conducted over the last 20 years showing that more than half the population is vitamin D deficient yet what have the Canadian public health officials done about it? Not much. You don't need to consider a pandemic prevention aspect before taking steps to rectify this vitamin deficiency since it has been known for about 100 years that vitamin D is important for bone health and muscle strength.

With regard to you statement that the doses of vitamin D being discussed here are "massive" well not at all. What they are in fact are well within the physiologic range for healthy people. In fact a daily dose of 5,000iu of vitamin D3 daily is just enough to get one's 25 OH vit D3 level above 50ng/ml and that takes 2 months to do. This serum level of vitamin D is what is needed for both bone health as well as immune health meaning cancer prevention and infection resistance.

The reason we consider it as "massive" is simply because prior to our investigations into this issue most of us thought that 400iu of D, the amount found in all multiple vitamin compounds sold worldwide contain this trivial amount and what's more right next to this on the bottle's label in the column for RDA it indicates that this level is 100% of what is needed.

Well it is 100% of the dose needed to prevent childhood rickets but just about nothing else. It is pretty likely that in the next few years the level of vitamin D needed will be increased to maybe as high as 2000iu daily but this is complicated by the fact that we know already that older people need more vitamin D than younger people and that age-based nutrient recommendations are seen as problematic by both regulators and product producers.

When it comes to what we learn and discuss here and the ability of this knowledge being of use to the many people who remain in the dark about the risk the face from pandemic, well... its a strike out I am afraid. In this regard, I am not simply speaking of the value of vitamin D alone but of all the things we have learned like how to prep, how to care for flu victims in our homes, how to protect ourselves and what not to expect from our governments if the pandemic becomes severe. These are all important things we have learned but few outside our flublogia world know or will ever learn. Sad but true.

I think it is too late to help. There might have been a chance to bring a lot of issues to the public's attention is we had started a couple of years ago and all worked together within our own communities to inform both regular people and TPTB. While many have done this individually, the results most of us have gotten out of this effort was a lot of frustration with very little action. It is too late now, IMO to cry of spilled milk or feel guilty about what might have been possible.

So while I share your concern that the vast majority of our worlds population is down partying on the beach while the tsunami is approaching, I for one have concluded that it will be our role in the coming horror show to stand atop the hill and watch as the wave moves in. We will have many opportunities to pull some of the hapless victims out of the rising tide and this IMO is what we should do but we have, in our own ways tried to warn them, all of them and failed to get much traction for our efforts.

So goes life!

GW

 

[GermTheory]

Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?

With respect to the advisability of adding supplements to one's diet, has anyone else run across studies that demonstrate that the nutritional value of food generally available in the supermarket does not contain the nutritional elements described in USDA and most nutrition tables? I know I have seen such studies, but I would be hard pressed to locate them. They indicated to me that mass produced food often does not contain the nutritional value we ascribe to it. This, along with concerns about genetic modification, pesticides, soil depleting practices of agribusiness and other issues has informed and prodded the local farm and organic food movements. In addition, if one looks carefully at the USDA food pyramid that presumably forms the basis of good nutrition, who among us actually ingests the recommended amounts of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains that are recommended for good health?

If you examine the food pyramid recommended by Dr. Andrew Weill for his antioxidant diet which also requires supplementation, it is necessary to eat 4-5 servings of vegetables, 3-4 servings of fruits, 1-2 servings of soy, 3-5 servings of cracked or whole grains, 1-2 servings of beans and legumes, 5-7 healthy fats, 2-4 servings of white, green or oolong tea per day, plus 2-6 servings of fish and seafood, 2-3 servings of pasta, and 1-2 servings per week of other protein sources. Dr. Weill has studied botany extensively in addition to medicine and is a well regarded holistic medical practitioner. His medical degree is from Harvard.

During a severe, prolonged pandemic, it would seem that supplements would be more important than ever since usual foods will not be available at times.

Another point about studies, most are now funded by those with an interest in their outcome. In other words, there is much room for bias. Most universitites have affiliated wtih corporate partners to fund research. Research studies cannot simply be taken at face value. Their funder must be known, and corporate affiliations of researchers declared. In addition to these types of bias, is the well known effect of paradigm thinking, a term first described by Thomas Kuhn in his landmark book, The Structure of Scientific Revolution. As I understand it, scientists become so invested in their own theories, spending a lifetime attempting to prove them, they readily reject competing theories that may in fact be more meritorious. It took too long to prove the world is round, once the world in flat thesis became established - an example of paradigm thinking.

One question I continue to have about Vitamin D from the Marshall perspective, is the close correlation of latitude or fish eating with the incidence of multiple sclerosis. Apparently there is a very low incidence closer to the equator or on coasts where large amounts of Vitamin D dense fish are eaten. If MS, an autoimmune disease, is caused by intracellular L shaped bacteria per the Marshall thesis, how is this geographic distribution explained?

I also wonder why those on the Marshall treatment plan exhibit such extreme photophobia?

Happy Independence Day, to all.