T-shirt mask could help in flu pandemic

[kr105]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Hi Chris,

I'm in healthcare (family practice) and will be on the front lines of this. Our clinic is huge and we see over 10,000 patients a month. The supply chain is adequate for normal problems, but we do run short at times. I've learned not to depend on them for supplies and for prudence sake, I am stockpiling.

I agree with your premise that there will be shortages and maybe healthcare should have first crack at them. With that in mind, I have to say that I question the sanity of my coworkers. When I mention H5N1 and pandemic flu, my fellow providers scoff. I had a feisty discussion with the doc in the office next to mine and he really does not believe it's going to happen. These are people who should know better!

So if folks in the profession are refusing to prepare where does that leave us?

I've said it before: Mother Nature is getting ready to add some chlorine to our gene pool. Survival will have nothing to do with race, religion, education or affluence level. It will come down to who has common sense and who does not. If you prepared, you have a better chance of surviving this mess. If you did not -- or expected "the government" or "the boss" to provide for you, you will not.

It may not be H5N1 - it may be something totally different, but in our recorded history, every century we have a pandemic illness which wipes out a percentage of the population. It never ceases to amaze me when people assert that we are technologically superior so we will escape it. I'm sure every group before us said the same thing.

I hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

(Can I get off my soapbox now?)

K.

[Snowy Owl]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Thank you Christian Rivers to introduce this aspect of the resources available and the ''buyers''.

About 1 year and half ago, some people 'saw' that the prices of Tamiflu would go up. They bought a lot, too much for resonnable personnal use, they now have problems.

Minsinisters, and paticularly people who 'serve' altruistically, are not totally alone.

Some are fast to see opportunities to make money despite what they cause, and they constitute the majority of the fading resources.

Although still in a reactionnary mode, Public Health Office will need soon the power of acquisistion.

Resources are low, that is quite apparent.

Let's not forget that Public Health Officers of most States and Provinces, are, under the National Security Legislation, that is in am unfolding pandemic, are allow to seize unreasonnable quantities of Preps.

[Laidback Al]

Re: What to do about Masks?

I would like to add an additional perspective to Snowy Owl's.

.....So now consider, if a sizable segment of the population purchases masks ahead of production capacity. Hospitals, clinics and special needs shelters will run out of supplies for health care workers in a matter of weeks.
Will the health care workers die off due to heavy exposure and lack of supplies? Is the casual use of N95 masks justified relative to the needs of acute care hospitals? What about workers who cannot engage in social distancing such as nursing homes and prisons? What happens later to the survivors of the pandemic but the inhabitants of a society without health care workers? I am sure other examples abound.

Even if stockpiling is practical, we have to consider the ethical practices when the time comes. At the very least, most people would have to consider
bartering to find the most useful mix of supplies.
C R

This issue of ethical behavior crops up in pandemic discussions every so often. It is an issue that needs to be considered now, while we still have time to invent scenarios and ask ourselves how we would respond.

As far as mask go, I don't think that readers of Flutrackers have the purchasing power to affect or corner the market on N95+ disposable masks or respirators. From a world wide perspective the choices regarding masks and respirators made by readers of this forum will not have any impact on the production or availability of these items.

I do think that people have a moral obligation to take care of themselves and their loved one first. If someone has the monetary and financial resources to build a substantial stockpile of prep items, including masks, for themselves and their family, it is not unethical. If someone hoards more masks then they need for themselves e.g. to barter or sell, the situation becomes a little less clear. Will these people be "profiteers" or just shrewd business people? See the Sub-forum on Avian Flu - Business & the Economy for additions discussions about ethical economic behavior in a pandemic. http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

I don't think that individuals who are foresighted enough to prep for a pandemic need to feel guilty about purchasing masks, medicines, or other items necessary for survival in the event of a pandemic.

Health Care Workers (HCW) on this and other forums have routinely lamented the fact that PPE in hospitals and nursing homes is barely adequate for current staffing needs. A patient surge from a pandemic would not only overwhelm the staff and personnel but would quickly exhaust all of the PPE supplies. I think the ethical issue that should be discussed, in light of a possible pandemic, is why hospitals, nursing homes, and other patient care facilities are not ramping up and and stockpiling supplies while there is still time and there are still supplies that can be purchased.

[T. Modesto,PhD]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Both points are valid in my opinion. Those who work hard should not be made to feel guilty that they have worked diligently to prepare for emergencies as well as to strive and achieve a comfortable living in ordinary circumstances. On the other had there are many who are not educationally, emotionally and socially privileged and able to make the choice to prepare, not at this time at least. No one should be looked down upon because they have not prepared or prepared like we think everyone should. Unless we have walked in their shoes and lives we will never know or understand what their circumstances are REALLY like or how they have been influenced over time.

We all need to prepare. Besides preparing ourselves, we need to think of how we can individually and collectively find meaningful ways that those socio-economic groups who have not prepared can identify with ?special others? who can then help educate them in preparation practices. How many ?stars? and athletes are being role models and saying hey I am preparing for a disaster, be ?cool with me? and also prepare. Not many from where I sit, I am willing to stand corrected. Oprah Winfrey did much by having an educational show on pandemic influenza. She began to educate a nation and in many circles the world. Instead of giving out splashy Christmas / holiday gifts on TV, I really would have cheered if she had given out a one month self reliance canister of emergency food and support supplies and showed that she has her own stock of tuna and other emergency supplies. We need role models, all of us especially during difficult nd emotionally challenging times. Next year we will see at the Super Bowl advertisements for all sorts of things. Wouldn?t it be great if we could have a donated donated 30 second ad encouraging emergency preparedness? Could kids trick or treat not for pounds of candy but encourage pounds of disaster prep boxes to be stored for when a disaster is eminent so that all could have some? To my way of thinking that would certainly be a better ?teachable moment? for our children in care and compassion for all humanity than to encourage them to beg for treats instead of earning them and gorge on sugar and self indulgence.

It is unrealistic to think we can save the world and that no one is going to be left behind. I?ll do all I can so that as few as possible in my circle of reference will be left behind but I can not set up myself or my country / world to think that we are super heroes that in a mighty flash we can rescue all from the plights of the world difficulties and disasters as well as simultaneously save the cat up in the tree. Realistically we are ordinary people, who have been given a great gift of awareness and ability to prepare our selves and our loved ones for major life challenges including that of medical disasters such as pandemics. We should all be thankful for that gift of disaster preparation ability and foresight. Imagine if everyone ( from presidents and super billionaires to the common person on the street pledged to donate from 1-10% of their preparations to work towards meeting the needs of the others less fortunate ? just imagine how much and how far that would go to help.

[Shannon Bennett]

Re: What to do about Masks?

First, I would like to welcome T.Modesto to our circle of contributors. (Modesto is close to where my son lives and where dh went to graduate school).

Ethically I am in the group of prep for yourself then think how you can help others. Sort of along the lines of put the air mask on yourself on a plane, then help those around you. I would love to inspire the world to not only take prep precautions but move the leaders of the world to take decisive steps to combat the flu where it has become endemic thereby protecting the rest of us. I fear my voice is small and muted, however. Our medium is public but how many actually read and internalize what is written? We see a steady increase in patients and a growing number of sick. The virus appears to be mutating to accommodate humans and to ignore Tamiflu. The disease is untracked in a large part of Asia. The virus is rampant in Indonesia without any hope of control. The press is lackadaisical at best and criminally absent at worst (with a few notable exceptions). Who heeds our call? Why would they prepare given the disparaging press? How can many who would prep if they could but, do not have the means to do so? What can and should they be doing? And surprisingly, how many have the skills to survive if forced into a protracted quarantine? We are starting with so many unknowns and so very many obstacles. My own philosophy is I cannot think of the blockades now or I will sink into apathy. One step at a time and one solution at a time. Every person we reach has saved at least one more and possibly many more. Just keep plugging away and pray our words are heard and our mission is moving forward.

[kr105]

Re: What to do about Masks?

T.M.

I agree with you!

Each week when I "prep" shop, I add in additional supplies to "share". The question that is often asked - is how to safely give out supplies.

It has been pointed out that handing supplies out at the door (to anyone who rings the bell and asks,) will set you up for a future robbery. Yet personally, I could not sleep on a full stomach, knowing I had said no to a family at my door.

It's all well and good to prep to survive - but at what cost? Our humanity?

My decision was tending towards not answering the door and waiting for those begging to leave the block. Give them a few minutes and go out in the car and look for them. (How far could they get on foot?) I would quickly roll down the window and toss a bag of food out, then drive away. They would not know where I lived or who their benefactor was. If they had a car right there and followed me, I would drive to the police station.

Alternately, (for neighbors) I would drop off food, on their doorstep, at night - ring the doorbell and quickly leave. Again, no one the wiser as to who did it.

I would be interested in your thoughts on this and if you see another solution to the issue of how to help, yet keep your family safe.

K.

[T. Modesto,PhD]

Re: What to do about Masks?

very well put!
PS now you have me REALLY wondering where someone else went to school and where another person lives? Hhhhmmmmm Mysteries of life make the journey more interesting! (Please note the RARE use of a smile figure! My late mother who loved them would be pleased.)
TM

[Laidback Al]

Re: What to do about Masks?

...

My own philosophy is I cannot think of the blockades now or I will sink into apathy. One step at a time and one solution at a time. Every person we reach has saved at least one more and possibly many more. Just keep plugging away and pray our words are heard and our mission is moving forward.

Shannon, I occasionally check the active user statistics. Sometimes there are 2-3 times as many guests signed on as members. These guests are reading, if not posting. I believe that the message is getting out and hopefully distributed. I just hope there is time for the message to spread among more people.

[Shannon Bennett]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Al, you are absolutely right. If we didn't have more people reading then we see posting, I would feel like giving up. As frustrating as this situation is, I do think many have decided the better part of valor is self-preparedness. And I must assume at least some of them have also shared the prep idea with friends and family. We won't reach most though until the press finally wakes up and realizes that the situation in Asia is getting steadily worse, not better. More victims, and no tracking, a disquieting resistance to Tamiflu now being observed and, no word of containing the region infected. Step by step, inch by inch we see the weight on the scale increasing. But because the scale doesn't read a sudden increase in weight no one is concerned. If you could show the worlds people the difference between victims from September 1 of last year, and September 1 of this year, I think you could make an argument that would alert at least a few. Sometimes however, it seems we are standing on the edge of the precipice yelling our heads off and the only thing we hear is our own echo reverberating off the canyon walls. No one hears but us. Few respond outwardly to our call or heed our warning.

[Snowy Owl]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Shannon,

A couple of months ago, a Health Minister of an Indian Province ask some specs on Mosquitoes control and the Chickungunya.

Few days later we have learn that he was the decider for 31 millions people.

Yes we have a reach, and by deciders mostly.

Yes we contribute in kickstarting, ramping up awareness, preps and on how to cope.

Again thank you to all of you who so kindly and generously dare to care.

[Christian Rivers]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Very informative set of posts. At this point I ask

?Are we preparing for the correct threat in the correct sequence??

I refer to the WHO guidelines. First is a 53 page checklist linked to specific phases

http://www.who.int/csr/resources/publications/influenza/WHO_CDS_CSR_GIP_2005_5.pdf

Next are guidelines on the use of masks

http://www.who.int/csr/resources/publications/influenza/Mask%20Clarification10_11.pdf

We have discussed on threads here that the announcement of Phase 4 will be a major tripping wire for the population to pay attention to the pandemic threat. Since the most common media reports on preparedness are 1) stockpiling and 2) social distancing, we may see a rush on supplies and marked increase in social distress well before the arrival of a single case of human H5N1 in the Americas.

Let me propose that we consider preparing for the threat of social disruption associated with the sudden awareness of the pandemic threat once we go to Phase 4. I plan to write up a ?virtual tabletop? on the topic late tonight and post in the psychological aspects thread early tomorrow. Feel free to start without me.
C R

[sharon sanders]

Re: What to do about Masks?

We reach millions. We are viewed by leaders, international organizations, governments, world's experts, and many of the world's citizens. I know this for a fact.

As I post this, I am helping a world expert prepare a presentation for an international conference where he will be the authoritative source on H5N1. His global reach is immense.

All of the information he needs is here. We are a "one-stop shop" for H5N1.

Never doubt your impact.

We offer hope to the world's citizens.

We will persevere in this endeavor.

We will continue to provide information that helps to lessen morbidity and mortality.

[T. Modesto,PhD]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Thank you for being willing to develop a table top exercise. That is an exceptional idea. So often we have what I call 'cloistered professional think tank' exercises at conferences but the general public does not have the opportunity to be involved and learn nd share. This is an wonderful and helpful opportunity to inform and collect information that can help our global family become more aware of the serious possibilities of this pandemic threat.

I look froward to your virtual tabletop exercise and all the thoughts, comments and contributions that will result.

T M

Very informative set of posts. At this point I ask

?Are we preparing for the correct threat in the correct sequence??
CR you are so right. I look forward to that table top exercise and discussion. Many on my team believe that the H5N1 will only come to major light when 'the first bird droms in America". To some degree that may be true for some. I certainly hope ti will be sooner than that when people wake up and start to realize the potential of all of this. Your idea of a table top exercise is exceptional. Often we have table top exercises for the 'cloistered professionals' at conferences. By offering a table top exercise in virtual cyber space it can be an opportunity for all kinds fo people to participate in it and help to provide educational awareness for everyone. tahnk you for beign willing ot do this.


I refer to the WHO guidelines. First is a 53 page checklist linked to specific phases
http://www.who.int/csr/resources/pub...GIP_2005_5.pdf

Next are guidelines on the use of masks
http://www.who.int/csr/resources/pub...ation10_11.pdf

We have discussed on threads here that the announcement of Phase 4 will be a major tripping wire for the population to pay attention to the pandemic threat. Since the most common media reports on preparedness are 1) stockpiling and 2) social distancing, we may see a rush on supplies and marked increase in social distress well before the arrival of a single case of human H5N1 in the Americas.

Let me propose that we consider preparing for the threat of social disruption associated with the sudden awareness of the pandemic threat once we go to Phase 4. I plan to write up a ?virtual tabletop? on the topic late tonight and post in the psychological aspects thread early tomorrow. Feel free to start without me.
C R

[kr105]

Why t-shirt masks won't work

I finally sat down and did the math on this one.

A Hanes, heavy weight t-shirt was stretched and the weave has holes of 1/2 mm size in them. (mm = 1 x 10 -3 meters or .001m)

The Influenza A virus measures 80 nm under an electron microscope (nm = 1 x 10 -9 or .000000001m)

So, given the weave of the fabric (.0005m) and the size of the virus (.00000008m) You are looking at roughly 1000 virus particles fitting thru each hole in the weave - for which there are thousands. 8 layers of fabric will not do the job!


--- EVERYTHING OLD IS NEW AGAIN ---

I sat down this evening to read the book Flu: The Story of the Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 and the Search for the Virus That Caused It by Gina Kolata

Low and behold, on page 23 it states:

"In Tucson, Arizonia, the board of health issued a ruling that "no person shall appear in any street, park, or place where any business is transacted, or in any other public place within the city of Tucson, without WEARING A MASK CONSISTING OF AT LEAST FOUR THICKNESSES OF BUTTER CLOTH OR AT LEAST SEVEN THICKNESSES OF ORDINARY GAUZE, COVERING BOTH THE NOSE AND THE MOUTH"

It didn't work then and it won't work now. Common sense tells you it can't -- you can see the fabric weave with the naked eye. A virus is so small you need an electron microscope to view it.

[wetDirt]

Re: Why t-shirt masks won't work

I finally sat down and did the math on this one.

A Hanes, heavy weight t-shirt was stretched and the weave has holes of 1/2 mm size in them. (mm = 1 x 10 -3 meters or .001m)

The Influenza A virus measures 80 nm under an electron microscope (nm = 1 x 10 -9 or .000000001m)

So, given the weave of the fabric (.0005m) and the size of the virus (.00000008m) You are looking at roughly 1000 virus particles fitting thru each hole in the weave - for which there are thousands. 8 layers of fabric will not do the job!

You are not replicating the construction of the actual mask. Let's review. The mask has 8 layers, and each layer is laid crosswise to the layer beneath. The fabric is boiled to shrink it, and the filter is not stretched in wear because of the 8 sewn-together layers. I just folded a t-shirt into 8 layers, and I can't even see light through it. You are not doing a fair test.

Just for fun, fold a t-shirt in half, then in half again, press it over your face, sealing the edges well, and try to breathe through it. There is significant breathing resistance, which will get worse as the thing gets damp. But it proves that there is a pressure gradient developing, and significant filtration.

Next test. Find an associate (I used the nearest kid). Open a packet of sweet-n-low and pour it into a teacup. Have said kid blow it into your face while you breathe through the 8 layers. Can you taste the sweetner? I can't and the kid can't either.

Just these 2 tests indicate that the t-shirt mask is likely to be somewhat effective.