NAMRU2 Issue

[sharon sanders]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Maybe yes, as long as it gives direct benefit and not compromise our homeland security.

The 'conspirational theory' that I read is that NAMRU-2 was approved by WHO so that it could be permanent here. AFAIK, Indonesia has asked WHO to approve Indonesia's Eijkmann lab to be a WHO approved lab, but it rejected too, and some would think that the purpose of the rejection was to secure NAMRU's presence too.

I can only speak for myself. But I do not care which entity runs the laboratory. I would like to see experienced persons, from any country, operate that facility since it is already open and equipped.

I think the concern of all is the flow of information. If there is a disease threat in Southeast Asia then I would like to see several well staffed and equipped laboratories explore the problem. As a world citizen I do not care much where the laboratories are exactly located or which experienced personnel perform the work.

 

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I can only speak for myself. But I do not care which entity runs the laboratory. I would like to see experienced persons, from any country, operate that facility since it is already open and equipped.

I think the concern of all is the flow of information. If there is a disease threat in Southeast Asia then I would like to see several well staffed and equipped laboratories explore the problem. As a world citizen I do not care much where the laboratories are exactly located or which experienced personnel perform the work.

Yes I understand. Its because of recognizing NAMRU's high importance, that Indonesia show willingness to negotiate a new deal. But for seven years the negotiation fails because of one stumbling block that we really do not understand why.
Well thats what Indonesian officials said in our media.

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

What do you think is the most important thing that the world can do to support Indonesia in the fight against bird flu?

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: NAMRU2 Issue

We are continuing on this thread that has more issues being discussed.

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66225

Thanks everyone!

This thread is now closed for simplicity.

 

[X-fingers]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Just with the food problems, we expect not in ten years from now, but in the nezt year alone a possibility of 100 000 MILLIONS of death from long suffering Starvation.



Snowy All

Snowy,

the number is way way off the mark because even if everybody died that would be about 6700 million deaths.
Maybe just a 'to' is missing and it's outer ranges for the estimate but anyway it's kind of untidy. Good numbers are also a part of clear communication.

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Snowy,

the number is way way off the mark because even if everybody died that would be about 6700 million deaths.
Maybe just a 'to' is missing and it's outer ranges for the estimate but anyway it's kind of untidy. Good numbers are also a part of clear communication.

Here is the U.N. release. It says 100 million are at risk of hunger.

Global food crisis ‘silent tsunami’ threatening over 100 million people, warns UN

22 April 2008 – The head of the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) today called for urgent action to tackle the “silent tsunami” of rising food prices which threatens to push more than 100 million people worldwide into hunger. “This is the new face of hunger – the millions of people who were not in the urgent hunger category six months ago but now are,” said WFP Executive Director Josette Sheeran, after addressing a British parliamentary hearing in London.
She said that like the 2004 tsunami, which hit the Indian Ocean leaving quarter of a million dead and about 10 million more destitute, the food price crisis – the biggest challenge WFP has faced in its 45-year history – requires a global response.
“The response calls for large-scale, high-level action by the global community, focused on emergency and longer-term solutions,” she added.
Recalling the record $12 billion provided by the donor community for the tsunami recovery effort, Ms. Sheeran said “we need that same kind of action and generosity.”
Stressing the role of partnerships in fighting the food “emergency,” she said WFP has been working with donor governments, other UN agencies, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund and other actors, including non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to ensure a coordinated response.
The impact of the crisis is already being felt in different parts of the world. Unless new funding can be found on time, WFP will have to suspend school feeding to 450,000 children beginning in May in Cambodia.
In addition, protests and riots have broken out in some countries over the rising cost of many basic foods, such as rice, wheat and corn.
Addressing a gathering of trade and development officials in Ghana over the weekend, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon urged immediate steps to guarantee the world’s food security, starting with ensuring that WFP has the additional $755 million it needs to cover the rising costs of its existing emergency operations.
In a related development, World Bank President Robert B. Zoellick has welcomed Japanese Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda’s intention to put the food crisis on the agenda of the Group of Eight summit, to be held in Japan in July.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=26412&Cr=food&Cr1=price

 

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Thank you for the question. It reminds me that this forum is mainly for flu problem. Sorry for forgetting that. If you live in Indonesia you will know that our country is facing so many health challenges. I just read mr Leavitt blog in which it said the Indonesian president and minister Bakri had a talk with Mr. Leavitt. You read the fact there that bird flu had killed 107 Indonesians until then, but tuberculosis kills 400 Indonesians each day. (And personally I have a niece who recuperate from TB). So the challenges are many here. The bird flu problem is one of them, but not the only one. I hope others not so quick to condemn my country in this NAMRU-2 and H5N1 issues. I am not Siti Supari admirer, but after reading what she is struggling for, I understand some of her points. There's also historical perspective in her struggle, as we have bad experience in sharing viral samples. Maybe litlle by little we can try to understand each other? Thank you very much

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Those of us here are part of the solution through our conversation.

Thanks!

Well - then what do you think the world can do for Indonesia? What is the most pressing problem? We have a very large audience here. Your words will be seen.


S.

 

[Malcolm]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

My opinion only:


The decentralization and democracy of the Indonesian government for the past 10 years reduced the power of the central government in diplomatic situations.
Perhaps this is changing.

The US diplomatic immunity request seems suspicious, unreasonable, and has no precedent. Researchers are not diplomats.

I have never seen visual evidence of any book written by Dr. Supari. Was the book ever published?

The sample sharing issue is cloudy at best. I still cannot comprehend why a researcher cannot buy a chicken in the marketplace and test it. This is not illegal, is it?

Transparency on ALL fronts---Indonesia, USA, CDC, and WHO is extremely lacking.

Politics and greed are ruling the situation, as usual. Concern for the health of human beings is last on the agenda.

What can the world do?

The world can encourage that every living person is valuable, and current barriers against fair and honest cooperation and concern for others need to come down for the good of all.

 

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

The US diplomatic immunity request seems suspicious, unreasonable, and has no precedent. Researchers are not diplomats.

I wonder if some of USA officials also unaware of this.
When the US embassy in Jakarta held a press conference (24/4), there's an uncomfortable moment when ambassador Cameron Hume and NAMRU-2 director Trevor Jones differed with each other on the issue.

Excerpts (translated by me) :
"Trevor (Jones) does not have diplomatic passport," said Hume.
"I do have," Trevor Jones who sat on the right side of Hume, said spontaneously. They both then looked at each other. The press conference was briefly stopped because they discussed the matter between them.

Imagine!

http://www.detiknews.com/index.php/...4/tgl/24/time/135717/idnews/928870/idkanal/10

What can the world do? This is really hard to answer.
But I agree with the statement, that the world can encourage that every living person is valuable, and current barriers against fair and honest cooperation and concern for others need to come down for the good of all.

Maybe you find it strange, but I believe this is what Siti Supari actually struggling for.
btw, the book was indeed published and I have read it from cover to cover.

 

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

One thing Indonesia demand to WHO is transparency beside equity and fairness in virus sample sharing.

Here is an opinion from The Hindu
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/26/stories/2008042655151000.htm

=========================
Transparency at last

The tough stand taken by Indonesia on sharing bird flu samples with the World Health Organisation collaborating centres has brought in substantial changes for the better.
The world body has put in place an electronic tracking system that will allow free public access to all H5N1 and other potentially pandemic human virus samples the affected countries had shared with it through the Global Influenza Surveillance Network (GISN). The system, which has data on shared samples, will allow contributing countries to know whether their samples have been developed into vaccine viruses and, if so, who the recipients of those vaccine viruses are. The system would also indicate if the developed countries have been prompt in sharing their samples, as claimed by them.

The stand-off between Indonesia and the WHO over sample-sharing in return for assured vaccine supply in case of a pandemic had brought to light the non-transparent nature of the surveillance network. Though countries that have had bird flu outbreaks are obliged to share samples with the WHO, until now they had no way of knowing who were using their samples and for what purposes. For instance, there was the case of an Australia-based pharmaceutical company making use of the Indonesian strain to develop a bird flu vaccine without Indonesia being aware of it.

It is shameful that though the network has been in place for 60 years, there has been a lot of confusion about who the players are and how it operates. That, apart from the collaborating centres, there were other institutions involved in the GISN became clear only last year confirms the opaqueness of the system.
Though the primary concern of Indonesia, which played a leading role in highlighting the inequity of the sample-sharing system, remains largely unaddressed, the way the world body was compelled to accede to its demand for a data-tracking system should strengthen its resolve to secure a fair mechanism for making vaccines available when a pandemic strikes anywhere.

The developed countries see Indonesia?s reluctance to share its samples as putting everybody at great risk. But it should be borne in mind that the developing countries were compelled to resort to such brinkmanship only to fight inequity in the world of vaccine and drug research.

The time has come for the WHO to change its policies that are antiquated and skewed in favour of the developed countries having large pharmaceutical industries so that the developing countries are given a fair deal. If this cannot be achieved through negotiations, developing countries might be tempted to follow Indonesia?s example and force the issue when a crisis is at hand.

 

[tropical]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

"Indonesia has asked WHO to approve Indonesia's Eijkmann lab to be a WHO approved lab, but it rejected too"
___

What were the WHO official reasons for the released above WHO cited rejection ?

- E. lab wasn't enaugh secure (the BSL4 question)?
- E. lab wasn't enaugh high quality/experience researcher equiped?
- E. lab future research statements quoted for would be not enaugh transparent?
- E. lab not definitive, or unconcluded legal ties with WHO/...?
- E. lab costs would be funded not only from national financing, and WHO don't want to sufinance it beside the other labs in the region (NAMRU,...)?
- ...
- "the X-files reasons"?

 

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

"Indonesia has asked WHO to approve Indonesia's Eijkmann lab to be a WHO approved lab, but it rejected too"
___

What were the WHO official reasons for the released above WHO cited rejection ?

- E. lab wasn't enaugh secure (the BSL4 question)?
- E. lab wasn't enaugh high quality/experience researcher equiped?
- E. lab future research statements quoted for would be not enaugh transparent?
- E. lab not definitive, or unconcluded legal ties with WHO/...?
- E. lab costs would be funded not only from national financing, and WHO don't want to sufinance it beside the other labs in the region (NAMRU,...)?
- ...
- "the X-files reasons"?

I said AFAIK (--as far as I know--), Indonesia has asked WHO to approve Indonesia's Eijkmann lab to be a WHO approved lab, but it rejected too.

And I could be wrong, so better I edited the post. I will post on this matter again only when I have a more valid source. My apologies.

 

[Malcolm]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Here are the diplomatic immunity rules from USA State Department:

http://www.state.gov/m/ds/immunities/c9127.htm


One interesting point is that the USA can still prosecute crimes committed in another country by someone holding Diplomatic Immunity in the host country. The host country cannot prosecute the person committing crimes, but can make them "persona non grata" and expel them from their host country.

 

[Commonground]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

[I guess this is where I post this.]

The Department of Health To Halt Sending of the Specimen to NAMRU
Senin, 28 Apr 08 16:38 WIB


The department of the Health will stop the supply of the illness specimen to Naval Medical Research Unit Two (NAMRU-2) in Indonesia, related the activity of the agency that misterius.Penghentian the supply of this specimen already exact, in accordance with the capacity himself as the minister.
However, to close NAMRU-2, that not became his authority.
Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari said, the government at this time try to get to the Kesehatan Body of the World (WHO), in order to stop the supply of the illness specimen that became the object of the NAMRU research that has operated for 30 years in Indonesia.

The "specimen was the sovereignty" of the "nation."
The Indonesian specimen was the Indonesian nation right.
But why they how come took in any way, afterwards they made something because they were cleverer.
They afterwards mengomersialisasikan.
That that still was fought for by me in WHO, "he said in RS Roemani, Semarang, of Central Java, on Monday (28/4)."
Several illness specimens that were researched NAMRU-2, added the Minister, including malaria, dengue fever, influenza, diarrhoea, and bird flu.
At this time the government was still being waiting for official information the US government against the contents MoU between the two sides.
MoU that mentioned in part Namru might not make the weapon biological, Namru must be transparent and was open, the Namru program must adapt the Department of Health program, and the agency might not mengomersialisasikan results of his research.
In the meantime, the Member the Perwakilan Council of the Area (DPD) RI Marwan Batubara Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari had the authority to expel Naval Medical Research Unit Two (Namru-2) from the Motherland.
If Menkes did not dare to carry him out, then that will raise the question.

"Penguasa Department of Health yes Menkes.
He had the authority to expel Namru from his office.
Or Menkes could the directive from his superior to leave Namru alone, as in the case of when handing over the Cepu Bloc to Exxon?" tegasny.
Politicians from Jakarta this challenged Menkes and President SBY to immediately expel Namru from Indonesia.
"Buktikan if Menkes, SBY, and the people had sovereignty.
Expel Namru from the Department of Health and Indonesia immediately!
How come we let had the country in the country?" firm he.
http://www.eramuslim.com/berita/nas/8428162250.htm

 

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Here are the diplomatic immunity rules from USA State Department:

http://www.state.gov/m/ds/immunities/c9127.htm


One interesting point is that the USA can still prosecute crimes committed in another country by someone holding Diplomatic Immunity in the host country. The host country cannot prosecute the person committing crimes, but can make them "persona non grata" and expel them from their host country.

Thank you for the link. Lets go back to the news of press conference held by the US Embassy. excerpt (translated from the Indonesian news):

http://www.detiknews.com/index.php/...4/tgl/24/time/135717/idnews/928870/idkanal/10

Hume then ammended his words. "They do not have the same diplomatic status as what I have here," Hume explained.

Deputy of the US ambassador John Heffern then said that NAMRU-2 researchers have the status as members of administrative and technical staff. This status is diferrent with regard to diplomatic immunity, and 19 NAMRU-2 researchers have this status.
"We hope the new MoU will allow NAMRU researchers to continue having this status," said Heffern.

When asked what kind of immunity that NAMRU-2 researchers have, Hume was reluctant to answer. "I am afraid there's no enough time to explain this," he said evasively.

The journalists were not satisfied with this answer, and then John Heffern added. "There's a difference in diplomatic status betwen them and us," Heffern said briefly.

=====================================================
But from the link provided by malcolm, we can see that members of adminstrative and technical staff have full immunity and inviolability, similar with the diplomatic agents.
Diplomatic status may be different, but the immunity is just the same.

That means NAMRU-2 researchers also have full immunity and inviolability!
And if they play the spy games in the host country they cannot be prosecuted by host country, (nor will they be prosecuted in their home country I guess).

Thanks for the important information, malcolm.

 

[gsgs]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I just found this at fluwiki:


> Because of this, was closed the existence Namru-2

that could be a translation error. It doesn't seem that it's already closed


---------------------------------------------
The People's Representative Council Member Supported Menkes To Be Closed Namru-2

http://www.poskota.co.id/news_baca.asp?id=37043&ik=6
The People's Representative Council Member Supported Menkes To Be Closed Namru-2
Senin 28 April 2008, Jam: 19:21:00

Jakarta (the Kota Post) - the People's Representative Council Circle supported Menkes Siti Fadilah Supari that wanted the laboratory US Naval Medical Research Unit Two (Namru -2) immediately was closed.

The People's Representative Council member from the Bintang Pelopor Faction of Democracy, M. Fauzi considered the existence Namru-2 in Indonesia in no way had the use and must be as soon as possible closed. "What for Namru-2 was maintained when uptil now this US laboratory did not care about various problems of the health in Indonesia. For example, when Indonesia was stricken by bird flu and dengue fever," he added.

That was more painful, added General Chairman Pemuda this Bintang Month, when Indonesia bought the vaccine in this laboratory his price was very expensive. "This was very excessive. They worked and resided in Indonesia, but against their Indonesian nation in no way cared. Because of this, was closed the existence Namru-2."

The Palace Denial
In the place was separated, President's Palace objected the Spokesperson the Dino Patti Djalal Presidency as the foreign agency. According to Mesesneg Hatta Radjasa, untrue and did not have a basis that Dino was the foreign agency.

According to Hatta, Dino was the special staff and at the same time the president's spokesperson, where his task was to send the president's attitude and what wanted to be sent by the president in the context of international relations that became attention of the president.

The circulating news this denial was related the existence Namru-2 in Indonesia that in recent times has been discussed.

[Menkes = health secretary]

 

[gsgs]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

and this:

(let's merge the discussions !)


Indonesia: opinion: Namru-2 for who
Approaching election year, it's guessing time again on who exactly is speaking for the public good. One day it's fuel subsidies, the next it's rice, and yet another day we were made to wonder whether indeed a 40-year-old U.S. laboratory should be closed down in our national interest.
A tempest rose in the past weeks over a Central Jakarta-based biomedical laboratory, Naval Medical Research Unit No. 2 (Namru-2), listed on the U.S. Embassy's home page as one of its several foreign service posts in Indonesia, and one of four representative institutions of the U.S. military here...

...The laboratory provided a short-cut in the otherwise long process of confirming suspected cases of bird flu, which has taken 107 lives across the country. Earlier, samples had to be sent to the facility of the World Health Organization in Hong Kong....

...Rhetoric on both sides merely heats up the war of words, while a verbal war doesn't hurt the interests of candidates on the campaign trail to 2009.

A new MoU would need to break down conditions such as transparency and access to laboratory research results. Negotiators seeking the best for Indonesian interests would also want to ensure transfer of technology, as claimed by the U.S.

Namru-2, we are told, was set up initially "at the invitation of Indonesian ministry of health officials".

When our guests engage in spy games, surely the welcome mat must be withdrawn. Otherwise, the average citizen is grateful to anyone who can help us deal with all these diseases plaguing what we thought had become a modern nation.

http://old.thejakartapost.com/...

Mildly skeptical of Indonesian government statements, he/she even quotes US Sec. Defense Gates saying Health Minister Supari's idea that the US is spreading bf is "nutty." This approach may be better at making people think (instead of voicing the rant in my own head).

[comment is not from me, but from fluwiki]

 

[Laidback Al]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I have read these threads carefully, but I can not seem to find the justification. Can someone explain why US citizens that are researchers and administrators at NAMRU require diplomatic immunity?

 

[gsgs]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

cause they don't trust the Indos ?

e.g. reporting about birdflu in some location, they often dislike this.
See Bali.

On the other hand, currently, as I see it, it's about the "virus theft"
activities, which is considered illegal by Indonesia
and they want to threaten them with prosecution.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the Americans did some other
espionage occasionally...