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NAMRU2 Issue

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

Diplomatic immunity is a form of legal immunity and a policy held between governments, which ensures that diplomats are given safe passage and are considered not susceptible to lawsuit or prosecution under the host country's laws (although they can be expelled). It was agreed as international law in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (1961), though the concept and custom have a much longer history. Many principles of diplomatic immunity are now considered to be customary law. Diplomatic immunity as an institution developed to allow for the maintenance of government relations, including during periods of difficulties and even armed conflict. When receiving diplomats — formally, representatives of the sovereign (head of state) — the receiving head of state grants certain privileges and immunities to ensure that they may effectively carry out their duties, on the understanding that these will be provided on a reciprocal basis. As one article put it: "So why do we agree to a system in which we're dependent on a foreign country's whim before we can prosecute a criminal inside our own borders? The practical answer is: because we depend on other countries to honor our own diplomats' immunity just as scrupulously as we honor theirs."<SUP id=cite_ref-0 class=reference>[1]</SUP>
Originally, these privileges and immunities were granted on a bilateral, ad hoc basis, which led to misunderstandings and conflict, pressure on weaker states, and an inability for other states to judge which party was at fault. Various international agreements known as the Vienna Conventions codified the rules and agreements, providing standards and privileges to all states.
It is possible for the official's home country to waive immunity; this tends to only happen when the individual has committed a serious crime, unconnected with their diplomatic role (as opposed to, say, allegations of spying), or has witnessed such a crime. Alternatively, the home country may prosecute the individual. Many countries refuse to waive immunity as a matter of course; individuals have no authority to waive their own immunity (except perhaps in cases of defection).

For US military personnell, states may not be able to open a trial because US doens't permit witnesses examination. This is the Italian examples I have cited above. If a researcher is a military and he commits violations with criminal charges, then he probably will not be on trial.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

what do other ASEAN countries say ? Do they support
their member Indonesia in this "virus-theft" affaire ?

Looks as if they waited until Leavitt left. Maybe they had been hoping
for some new Leavitt-ideas to resolve the issue and then were
disappointed

There an interesting article in www.aseanaffairs.com on this matter.
Well, with more and more facts come out these days, I believe the pressure on our govt to close this mysterious NAMRU-2 will be soo huge....
http://www.aseanaffairs.com/page/1055055


Naval Officers in White Smocks - Part 1: Diplomatic Passports for Anti-Viral Protection
By Mikhail Tsyganov exclusive for AA

Actually, this story was going to be titled "US Navy also fights bird flu in flooded Jakarta", but? a secretive office known as U.S. Naval Medical Research Unit 2, or NAMRU-2 established in Indonesia almost 40 years ago is shrouded in mystery to this day.

"The unit is an element of the United States Navy" established "in order to collaborate with the Indonesian Department of Health on health problems of mutual interest," says the U.S. Embassy website.

"The mission of NAMRU-2," the site elaborates, "is to conduct research, tests and evaluation of infectious diseases to enhance the health, safety and readiness of U.S. Armed Forces in the effective performance of peacetime and contingency missions throughout Southeast Asia."

The wording has changed considerably from the original statement, according to which NAMRU-2 was established in Indonesia in 1970 "to investigate infectious diseases of military importance both for the U.S. Navy and the rest of the Department of Defense."

"At the present time, NAMRU-2 is involved throughout Indonesia and Southeast Asia in numerous medical research projects including malaria, cholera, typhoid, dengue fever, HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis, etc." The site also offers an address and office hours, but restricted access to the unit makes these hardly necessary.

Despite its official status of a WHO Collaborating Center, the label under which it also appears in WHO papers, the veil of mystery hangs thick around any details of this collaboration. NAMRU-2 turns down interview requests, referring journalists to the U.S. Embassy, which also refuses to discuss the matter in any detail.

Repeated attempts to peep behind the curtain ? with NAMRU?s permission, of course - brought, at last, a computer presentation with the intriguing name of "N2 Cmd brief Russians." It was more of a polite mockery. The document signed "U.S. Naval Medical Research Unit 2" and obtained through the embassy?s press attach? offered a relevant answer to only one of many questions - on the number of personnel. "There are 17 U.S. personnel at NAMRU-2, all active duty military," it said.

When asked about NAMRU-2?s present legal status, the unit referred to the first memorandum of mutual understanding, signed with Indonesia back in 1970. The document did not specify which memorandum was currently valid.

That was not surprising. As a source in Jakarta diplomatic circles, who insisted on anonymity, said, the latest agreement expired in 2000 and the present official status in Jakarta of U.S. Navy medical researchers with diplomatic passports is - to put it mildly - open to questions. As far as our informant knows, those passports are one of the biggest stumbling blocks in U.S.-Indonesian talks on prolonging the agreement, which have been going on for seven years now. Washington insists on the Navy personnel retaining their diplomatic status.

"I wonder why they insist on it," said another source, an Indonesian foreign ministry officer. "We would be glad to give them work permits with official duty passports, but Washington says diplomatic status would better protect its naval medics."

As Desra Percaya, an Indonesian foreign ministry spokesman, told the author, when U.S. President George W. Bush went to Indonesia toward the end of last year on a visit lasting several hours, he found time to discuss the NAMRU-2 issue with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. The summiteers agreed, in principle, to hold further discussions on the unit?s future status, Mr. Percaya added.

One can make his own interpretation on whether the U.S. laboratory in the center of Jakarta has an indefinite legal status, the spokesman remarked.

The entire history of the enigmatic research unit was closely tied to politics long before it appeared in Indonesia. I had some difficulty finding out about its background before I came upon the official U.S. Navy web site. I learned from it that NAMRU-2 was established in Guam during World War II with the same mission of "investigating infectious diseases of military importance," to be transferred, in 1955, to Taiwan - closer to Indochina, a new problem area. During the Vietnam War, the unit worked "not only for operational support in Southeast Asia, but also to expand its research frontier," the official history says.

NAMRU-2 opened in Indonesia as a satellite laboratory of NAMRU-2 Taipei after the first memorandum of understanding was signed in 1970. The parent unit had to shift to the Philippines in 1979, after the U.S. established diplomatic relations with China. The new seat - obviously - was not a random choice, with the Philippines hosting the world?s largest U.S. military bases at the time. "Political turmoil in the Philippines and potential threat against U.S. personnel? led to the parent unit also being moved to Indonesia in 1990. A "2,400 square foot BL3 laboratory from the U.S. Army medical research facility in Korea" soon followed the suit.

Paradoxically, Indonesia that refused to accept U.S. military bases even during the Cold War now hosts Asia?s ? or possibly the world?s ? largest U.S. overseas naval medical research unit under diplomatic protection.

As both NAMRU-2 and the U.S. Embassy gave no answer when I asked why collaboration with the World Health Organization needed secrecy, I turned for information to the WHO itself and to the Indonesian Health Ministry.


http://www.aseanaffairs.com/page/1055055
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

I guess, the concern is that Indo could come up with any accusations
like espionage, research for military purposes, publishing secret
sequences, submitting to LosAlamos, doing forbidden throat-swabs,
saying bad things to newspapers about the government or Allah
or such and nobody could really control whether the accusations
were justified or illegal to Indo-laws.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

All this talk of diplomatic immunity and secrecy is a red herring.

If Egypt welcomes NAMRU-3 with open arms, Indonesia has no standing to block the research lab. let me tell you right now that the Egyptian government has a hell of a lot more to lose politically than does the Indonesian government by having the US Navy on its shores.

It is time for the Indonesian government to butch up and show it belongs in the Core. My God, if Myanmar can send H5N1 samples to the OIE and WHO, Indonesia looks not smart by NOT doing the same. Move NAMRU-2 to a nation that really wants it (I would not be surprised if Vietnam wanted it!), and we'll get those Indonesian flu samples some other way. If the Indonesian government wants to deny valuable research to its citizens, that's their call. It's their citizens' lives at stake.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Thanks for everyone's comments. I am too biting mad right now to comment.....
em42.gif
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Its like opening pandora box. More and more facts come out, and it seem its not all. This is how I saw it (I could be wrong).

At first Indonesian officials did not say much about NAMRU-2, they refused to give comment to reporters.

But since Mr. Leavitt said very bad things about Indonesia in his blog for the world to read,
(like : Indonesia seeking payment over viral sample, royalties and so on, and so on),
or this
"Minister Supari recently issued orders to prohibit Indonesian institutions from providing tissue samples to NAMRU-2," Leavitt wrote in his blog.
"Her action is obviously linked to her global initiative to seek specific benefits for sharing samples."

then after Mr Leavitt said all this, the Indonesian officials and former officials were put in the defensive mode, and they had no choice but revealing many facts, so that the world know that this is not about the money as Mr Leavitt try to put it.

In fact, the struggle for Indonesia to end NAMRU-2 operation has been going on for 10 years.

I see you can read Indonesian, so here some links from detik.com.
1. 1998, Indonesian military chief seek to end NAMRU closure. In this link you will see the copy of the document.

http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.ph...4/tgl/25/time/192738/idnews/929734/idkanal/10

2. In 1999 the then Indonesia foreign minister ask the then President to end the cooperation because it harm Indonesian Interest. See that the fact about immunity for NAMRU-2 staff is real.
See for yourself, it also mentioned the worry about "Konvensi Senjata Biologi" / the Convention of the Biological Weapon.

http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.ph...4/tgl/25/time/180612/idnews/929687/idkanal/10

http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.ph...4/tgl/25/time/192738/idnews/929734/idkanal/10

http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.ph...4/tgl/25/time/184546/idnews/929713/idkanal/10

I maybe said too much, but let me say that this is what dominated our media right now. So sooner or later you too will find out about this.

Thank you
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

You have not said too much. We want to know what is in the Indonesian media. As you can see, we access the media and translate everyday for posting on this site.

I want to thank everyone for a very respectful discussion.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

I appreciate all of the different perspectives that have been presented here on the NAMRU issue. There seems to be a lot of political posturing from both the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">United States</st1:country-region> as well as <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Indonesia</st1:place></st1:country-region>. But, from the perspective of the goals of FluTrackers, we should all be considering solutions that are mutually beneficial to the people of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Indonesia</st1:place></st1:country-region> as well as the rest of the world?s population who are currently at danger from a virulent pandemic in the future.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...navy-laboratory/2008/04/25/1208743252040.html


Indonesian fears over US Navy laboratory



Mark Forbes
April 26, 2008


A UNITED States Navy research laboratory in Jakarta is at the centre of a diplomatic stand-off with Indonesia, amid allegations it is involved in intelligence collection and biological weapons production.

Islamic leaders met Indonesian Health Minister Siti Fadillah Supari yesterday, agreeing that the laboratory had not benefited Indonesia. Defence Minister Juwono Sudarsono has also criticised the facility, demanding oversight of its operations.

Continuing friction over the sharing of bird flu samples and wide-ranging US conspiracy theories have stalled permission for the US Naval Medical Research Unit (NAMRU) to continue operating out of an Indonesian Health Ministry complex.

A personal plea to Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono by US Secretary of Health Michael Leavitt last week failed to resolve the row.

Officials said a new agreement was being blocked by US requests for diplomatic immunity for its 19 NAMRU staff and Indonesian restrictions on sharing bird flu samples.

Continued claims by Mrs Supari that the US wants to use the bird flu virus for biological weapons have fuelled domestic suspicions about NAMRU, which was established in 1970 as one of five overseas military laboratories studying infectious diseases.

The other laboratories are in Peru, Kenya, Thailand and Egypt.

A visibly exasperated US ambassador Cameron Hume conducted a press conference earlier this week in an attempt to dispel allegations about the laboratory, including that it undertook bio-weapons research.

"The Indonesian Government has access to all of the results of the work," Mr Hume said. "I think the idea that it is not transparent to the Indonesian authorities is frankly peculiar."

The US embassy also issued a fact sheet, titled "The Truth about NAMRU", denying the facility was undertaking intelligence activities. The unit, it said, "conducts only medical and scientific research".

NAMRU was based in Indonesia because of the prevalence of tropical diseases and it was in Indonesia's interests for its work to continue, the embassy stated.

When bird flu began to spread through Indonesia four years ago, NAMRU played a key role in tracking the disease in the country with the most human deaths from the H5N1 virus. As part of her campaign to assert Indonesian "ownership" of its virus samples, Mrs Supari recently halted NAMRU's access to them.

After meeting Dr Yudhoyono and Mrs Supari last week, Mr Leavitt posted a frank entry on his website.

He said Mrs Supari had "used the sample-sharing debate and the negotiations over the status of NAMRU in Indonesia to set herself up as an antagonist of the United States, a position I suspect helps her politically" and that her prohibition on providing tissue samples to NAMRU was "obviously linked to her global initiative to seek specific benefits for sharing samples".

Mr Leavitt summed up Mrs Supari's position as "share samples, get paid".

Mr Sudarsono was emphatic that diplomatic immunity would be granted only to NAMRU's two most senior staff. Indonesian navy doctors should also be assigned to supervise the laboratory.

"If we give diplomatic immunity to all of them, we are afraid we will not be able to control or know the things they do or take in the research activities," he said.

With REUTERS
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

but what's the real reason ?
Indonesia is afraid of "virus-theft". !?

Should it be mere coincidence the NAMRU-2 issue
and the trouble with WHO, the Supari-book,
the withholding of sequences ?

BTW. I meant ASEAN, not Asean. They had some common strategy
wrt. birdflu. Think at Europe : strict common regulations
for quarantine, preparedness, poultry-control,
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

via toggletext


Kami mempersilahkan warganegara Indonesia mengambil bagian di sini. Kami gemar mempunyai semua pendapat. Kami hormat dan menghargai masukan.

Terima kasih!


We invite Indonesian citizens to participate here. We like to have all opinions. We are respectful and appreciate the input.

Thank you!


http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1143


Terima kasih kembali. Thank you
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

In short, Indonesia leaders think that NAMRU-2 has been more harmful than beneficial to Indonesia's interest.

The benefit for Indonesia is not significant. For example NAMRU-2 made research about malaria, but there's no technology transfer to Indonesia on malaria, and as an analyst said "not even a single medicine of malaria was developed by NAMRU-2", and the condition of malaria in Indonesia is just as bad as it was before the presence of NAMRU-2.

The immunity that was granted to all the staff also not good for Indonesia, so it need to be changed.

So in January 28, 2000, Foreign Minister Alwi Shihab ended cooperation with NAMRU-2 in a letter to the US Ambassador Robert Gelbard, because the situation has greatly changed and no longer relevant with the situation when the MoU of NAMRU-2 was signed in 1970.

And there's nothing wrong with this. Because ending the MoU unilaterally can be done after 10 years of the cooperation as written in article XII of the MoU.
Indonesia is open to negotiate a new MoU, but it should be based on mutual benefit, mutual respect, and fairness for both countries. But no new MoU can be reach since then because the USA insist on immunity for all the staffer.

What should be done if a foreign military lab work in your country without legal status? The USA refuse new MoU but continue the operation of NAMRU-2, (some would say here that its operation is illegal).
If this NAMRU-2 really important for the global health, then new MoU should be signed, so its operation is legal. If no MoU can be reach, than think, what is the solution?

As one of the poster said, it should be Cooperation, not Occupation.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Terima kasih Ningtyas untuk analisa.

Kerjasama adalah kunci. Anda adalah sebelah kanan.

Tak seorang pun ingin pekerjaan.

Kebanyakan dari kami, sepribadi warganegara, tidak mempunyai kontrol di balik apa yang dilakukan oleh pemerintah kami.

Di internet kami mempunyai kesempatan untuk bertemu sebagai warganegara dunia dan ekspres sendiri tanpa kesukaran pemerintah kami.

Kami mujur bahwa teknologi ini ada bagi kami untuk menyuarakan pendapat kami secara internasional.



Thank you Ningtyas for the analysis.

Cooperation is the key. You are right.

No one wants occupation.

Most of us, as private citizens, have no control over what our governments do.

On the internet we have the chance to come together as citizens of the world and express ourselves without the impediments of our governments.

We are lucky that this technology exists for us to voice our opinions internationally.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

but what's the real reason ?
Indonesia is afraid of "virus-theft". !?

Should it be mere coincidence the NAMRU-2 issue
and the trouble with WHO, the Supari-book,
the withholding of sequences ?

Maybe this news could be of some help.
http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.ph...4/tgl/26/time/082345/idnews/929782/idkanal/10

It said that the then Minister of Defense/ the Military Chief was enraged because NAMRU conducted research on the sea, which could be harmful to Indonesia. Thats why he urged the govt to end NAMRU-2 operation altogether in 1998.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Machine translation of link in the post above by Ningtyas.

Wiranto when holding the office of the Minister For Defence And Security/Pangab ask for so that NAMRU-2 was stopped. NAMRU-2 carried out investigation in dangerous sea the defence and the security nasional NAMRU carried out the research in sea. Therefore Wiranto angry, said the observer of Wawan Purwanto intelligence in discussions in Bidakara, Street Medan Merdeka Selatan, Jakarta, on Friday, (25/4/2008). According to Wawan the research in the sea was quite dangerous because of could detect all the nature wealth in sea. These findings could be made use of unilateral for the defence of the foreign country, in this case AS. Menurut Wawan, Wiranto sent his aspirations to the government of the centre, was followed by the minister foraff at that time Alwi Shihab in 2000. However the protest dimentahkan. "This the matter" of the "interests." There are those that mementahkan inside because of having the other interests, explained Wawan. However Wawan reluctantly explained who that mementahkan protested soaL NAMRU-2. Since 2000-2005, NAMRU-2 worked only have as capital suarat edaran. The letter who? "Not needed to be mentioned deh," he said evasively.

http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.ph...4/tgl/26/time/082345/idnews/929782/idkanal/10

and the comments --

conan_snichi,
SIALAN BENER PENGHIANAT INI, BRANTAS penghianat bangsa..... Ayo mana taringnya aumm.. aumm.. tembak di tempat aja. atau digantung biar melihat perjuangan PAHLKAWAN KITA DAHULU
DAMMIT BENER PENGHIANAT INI, BRANTAS penghianat the nation.....Come on whatever taring him aumm.. aumm.. shot in the place aja. or was hung although seeing the struggle for PAHLKAWAN KITA DAHULU

Bajul,
Apa sich yg mau dirahasiakan? semua data kelaut bisa dilihat dari satelit kok. kecuali ada agenda politik lain semua pada bekoar, maklum jelang 2009.
What sich yg wanted to be kept secret?
All the datas kelaut could be seen from the satellite kok. except for having the other political agenda all in bekoar, understood visited 2009.

Bangsat,
Bangsaaatttt ... ada yg berkhianat...Kurraaanggg ajaarr.... Ga tau diri ... Susah-susah kita merdeka ... masih saja ada yg mengkhianati .... Ciduk itu orang ....!!!

Bangsaaatttt... was yg berkhianat... Kurraaanggg ajaarr....
Ga tau himself...<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
Be difficult-be difficult we were independent... still was yg betrayed....<o:p></o:p>
Arrested that the person....!!!

Fauzi Demokrat,
Pemerintah Amrik bener2 keterlaluan, yg lebih keterlaluan ada bangsa kita yg ikut membantu amrik, DPR jangan diam saja, usut sampai tuntas, panggil Presiden untuk menjelaskan, biar ketahuan siapa2 yg sebenarnya musuh bangsa sendiri, jangan kasih ampun...

The government Amrik very true excessive, yg more excessive had our nation yg took part in helping amrik, the People's Representative Council should not be just quiet, became tangled until complete, called the President to explain, although detecting anyone yg in fact the enemy of the nation personally, should not give the pardon...
<o:p></o:p>
 
Last edited:
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

I don't know why, but more and more facts come out in our media.
Maybe Indonesian leaders are weary of the accusation of "share virus, get paid" thingy from Mr. Leavitt and many others accusations (that only my guess).
The problem with NAMRU-2 has even started long before Mrs. Supari become our Health Minister and the controversy of virus sharing arise.

Here is the newest news.
Excerpts (translated by me) :
This is from the letter of recommendation of Foreign Minister in 2004.

When Indonesia ended the cooperation of NAMRU-2 in 2000, as a consequence NAMRU was not allowed to conduct new research, but was allowed to finish ongoing projects. There were 9 from 19 ongoing projects that were allowed to be finished. But then again, NAMRU was not transparent about these research.
Indonesia did not receive any information about the 9 projects, and in addition, Indonesia did not see the benefit of those projects for Indonesia, which are important for Indonesia to make assessment about the future of the cooperation.
In the end the foreign minister recommended that NAMRU-2 be closed soon after the finishing of the 9 ongoing projects. "Without any willingness of the USA to accept Indonesian offer, and direct benefit that can be felt by Indonesia, as soon as the ongoing projects concluded, NAMRU-2 can be considered to be closed until we have a new agreement that is more beneficial for Indonesia."
http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.ph...4/tgl/26/time/110401/idnews/929836/idkanal/10
------------------
Indonesian offer in the news above means the offer about the number of NAMRU staf that will be given immunity. Indonesia will not give more than two, especially with the incident that made our Military Chief enraged. This is about our national safety and security, this is not to be compromised.

I agree with some posters here who propose that NAMRU be moved to another country. If there's not agreement, then thats the only solution.

But for now we will have to wait to the response of the USA on the new MoU proposed by Indonesia.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

so, is Indonesia planning to do some NAMRU-like cooperation
with other countries ?

Suppose, there had been no diplomatical immunity before,
who would have been put to trial and for what ?

As I see it, this is all to prevent "virus-theft"

And Indonesia has problems not only with USA.
Also WHO. Also Australia.
They all want to help Indonesia. I can see no general problems
about the intents and goals.
It should be possible to solve issues about the details
if both sides move a little.
 
Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

It should be possible to solve issues about the details if both sides move a little.

Indonesia has moved a lot, from wanting to close it altogether to offer a new MoU, which is a better one for Indonesian interest than the previous one.
Indonesia has proposed a new draft of MoU, to which the USA did not respond to.

Its the USA who did not want to move, but insisted to get immunity for all the staff, which is impossible for Indonesia to give because its proven harmful for our national security.
 
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