Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

[Legadillo]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

I didn't think so either, but was just trying to put out all the possible explanations

Just so I understand - when you say "diagnosed" are you saying you were swabbed twice and the results were positive twice for Type A? Just want to make sure I understand!

If not, it is possible that, as North pointed out, you have simply been exposed to some other viral bugs circulating.

Yes, I was swabbed twice, as were my kids and other families. This doesn't necessarily mean we have H1N1 but that we for sure have Type A flu, which is MOST LIKELY H1N1 as opposed to othet Type A flus.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

This is a brand new virus, a triple reassortant. Maybe old rules don't apply to this particular brand of virus. Maybe you get can it multiple times even if there isn't any drift.

 

[morningperson]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

legadillo, did you take Tamiflu the first time you had flu?

 

[North44]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

Yes, I was swabbed twice, as were my kids and other families. This doesn't necessarily mean we have H1N1 but that we for sure have Type A flu, which is MOST LIKELY H1N1 as opposed to othet Type A flus.

So, I guess the next question is: how long does it take for the test to become negative after an initial infection? I don't know the answer to this.

 

[tesseract]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

Yes, I was swabbed twice, as were my kids and other families. This doesn't necessarily mean we have H1N1 but that we for sure have Type A flu, which is MOST LIKELY H1N1 as opposed to othet Type A flus.

Understood. I agree that if positive for flu, most likely 2009 H1N1 as opposed to anything else since seasonal isn't circulating in large numbers yet.

Two articles about shedding:

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/swineflu/news/sep1509transmiss-jw.html

and

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFluNews/people-shed-swine-flu-virus-longer-thought/story?id=8584596

The last article suggesting perhaps as long as 12 days (although rare).

Anyone read any studies showing viral shedding longer than that?

 

[Legadillo]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

One of my friend's kids has pneumonia and he goes to Richmond Hill Middle School where there is a H1N1 outbreak. My friend has been informed by her doctor that he has Croup, NOT swine flu due to his being negative on the nasal swabs!!

 

[Flufreak]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

This is a brand new virus, a triple reassortant. Maybe old rules don't apply to this particular brand of virus. Maybe you get can it multiple times even if there isn't any drift.

I have been told straight out by someone deep in the government loop that "you can get and recover from this virus without gaining immunity. This is why the vaccine is so important."
They are NOT openly touting this at the moment because they fear panic would ensue due to lack of availability. I assume they will emphasize this later to increase percentage vaccinated. I do not have time to research this on my own right now, it would be great to give a link to back this up or refute this. It sounds plausible to me and would fit with the study mentioned by CDC that showed only 10% of suspected cases had immunity when tested later. My own personal theory had been that the immunity did not last, which would have been a much worse situation, so I am glad to be wrong.
So it sounds like getting the vaccine saves us all but I can not help but be suspicious, but I guess that's just because it's my nature. And the fact that messages and information continue to be mixed and conflicting.
Got to run, we are vaccinating parents and caregivers of children 5 and under as of today! Next week it will be pregnant women.

Oh, I almost forgot: the 28 day thing. I was also told that the reason behind separating seasonal and ***** vaccines (of any type, NOT just live) is that if they are closer together, there is high potential for diminished effectiveness of one, the other, or both and that this is "common" knowledge in public health circles. "The immune system is easily confused by influenza viruses".
Just reporting what is being told to me, 2 grains of salt....:twocents:

 

[Legadillo]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

I have been told straight out by someone deep in the government loop that "you can get and recover from this virus without gaining immunity. This is why the vaccine is so important."
They are NOT openly touting this at the moment because they fear panic would ensue due to lack of availability. I assume they will emphasize this later to increase percentage vaccinated. I do not have time to research this on my own right now, it would be great to give a link to back this up or refute this. It sounds plausible to me and would fit with the study mentioned by CDC that showed only 10% of suspected cases had immunity when tested later. My own personal theory had been that the immunity did not last, which would have been a much worse situation, so I am glad to be wrong.
So it sounds like getting the vaccine saves us all but I can not help but be suspicious, but I guess that's just because it's my nature. And the fact that messages and information continue to be mixed and conflicting.
Got to run, we are vaccinating parents and caregivers of children 5 and under as of today! Next week it will be pregnant women.

Oh, I almost forgot: the 28 day thing. I was also told that the reason behind separating seasonal and ***** vaccines (of any type, NOT just live) is that if they are closer together, there is high potential for diminished effectiveness of one, the other, or both and that this is "common" knowledge in public health circles. "The immune system is easily confused by influenza viruses".
Just reporting what is being told to me, 2 grains of salt....:twocents:

Thanks for the info!!! I think panic is not the problem here but more like ANGER! The question I have is, why does the vaccine create immunity but getting the virus doesn't?? Just curious

 

[North44]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

I have been told straight out by someone deep in the government loop that "you can get and recover from this virus without gaining immunity. This is why the vaccine is so important."

I, like Legadillo, am having trouble understanding how you can develop immunity as a result of the vaccine, but not from infection with the actual virus. Maybe someone can clarify this for us.

 

[prepdeb]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

Ditto here too.
If being infected with a live version of the virus doesn't provide immunity, I have a hard time buying the idea that being innoculated with a killed version of the virus will.

As someone who has been sick several times this summer, but was never tested, I'm willing to believe that I may not have had H1N1 over and over again, but it's very unusual for me and so many others to experience flu-like symptoms in the summer months.

I wish they would publish something explaining how and why the vaccine will provide immunity whereas infection doesn't.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

legadillo, did you take Tamiflu the first time you had flu?

I don't think Legadillo answered your question. As her mother and the person who took care of her, I'm quite sure that she didn't take Tamiflu during her first infection. As I recall, she said her emergency Tamiflu was packed up somewhere in all the boxes from when she moved to Richmond Hill from the Netherlands.

I am quite certain that she has Tamiflu for this second infection and that our two grandchildren are taking the antiviral for their infections. Our grandson did take Tamiflu for his first very mild infection and is taking it for the second infection as well. So far so good. Fingers crossed.

 

[morningperson]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

Thank you. I remember previous discussions regarding Tamiflu and development of H1N1 antibodies, but don't recall if a conclusion was drawn. It's probably not pertinent, since it seems people might be contracting this flu several times regardless of tamiflu use.

 

[lulu2]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

I can't find anything on this....my son almost for sure had the H1N1...once, maybe twice....do I get him the swine flu vaccine then? Doesn't he have antibodies from getting it already?

Thanks!

 

[North44]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

My understanding is that if someone had a confirmed case of H1N1, they would not require vaccination.

 

[Vibrant62]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

During the recent research on H5N1 there was a primate study

CR Babkin et al. Early and sustained innate immune response defines pathology and death in nonhuman primates infected by highly pathogenic influenza virus. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/02/12/0813234106.full.pdf+html

From the summary
Notably, the H5N1 virus targeted type II pneumocytes throughout the 7-day infection, and induced the most dramatic and sustained expression of type I interferons and inflammatory and innate immune genes, as measured by
genomic and protein assays. The H5N1 infection also resulted in prolonged margination of circulating T lymphocytes and notable apoptosis of activated dendritic cells in the lungs and draining lymph nodes early during infection. While both 1918 reassortant viruses also were highly pathogenic, the H5N1 virus was exceptional for the extent of tissue damage, cytokinemia, and interference with immune regulatory mechanisms, which may help explain
the extreme virulence of HPAI viruses in humans.

This study also inferred/implied that because the H5N1 virus attacked certain key immune cells and dendritic cells which are involved in the generation of a long term 'memory' of infection, it was possible that infection itself would not mount a sustained immune response or memory, or at least not easily. i.e there is a potential for multiple infections by live virus. Others may wish to examine this more closely to make sure I have the right end of the stick so to speak.

If so, perhaps there is a similar mechanism at work here? In which case, infection itself could quite feasibly NOT lead to long term immunity ... however, vaccination, as it is not involving an actual infection mechansim whereby certain critical key immune cells are infected (dendritic cells) WOULD allow generation of long term immunity as these parts of the immune system are not infected during a vaccination process.

To answer this we would need a similar such study to look at H1N1 and see if it is behaving in a similar fashion to H5N1. If the answer is yes, it raised many questions, such as, would this effect be sustained when the virus has drifted away from the vaccine stain i.e are repeated mass vaccinations going to be required each year?

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

My understanding is that if someone had a confirmed case of H1N1, they would not require vaccination.

Since lab confirmations quickly evolved into only those with serious illness and hospitalization, comparatively few would fall under this definition, at least in the States.

 

[North44]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

I agree. Most everyone falls into the category of needing the vaccine.

 

[tropical]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

Vibrant62, #95:
"If so, perhaps there is a similar mechanism at work here? In which case, infection itself could quite feasibly NOT lead to long term immunity ... however, vaccination, as it is not involving an actual infection mechansim whereby certain critical key immune cells are infected (dendritic cells) WOULD allow generation of long term immunity as these parts of the immune system are not infected during a vaccination process."


The world research guru's are expected to answer such tricky question.

If the above demonstrated to be correct, flu parties or leaving the population to be infected without barriering and closures - are definitely a wrong thing to do (as already said by some researchers).

 

[North44]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

This study also inferred/implied that because the H5N1 virus attacked certain key immune cells and dendritic cells which are involved in the generation of a long term 'memory' of infection, it was possible that infection itself would not mount a sustained immune response or memory, or at least not easily. i.e there is a potential for multiple infections by live virus. Others may wish to examine this more closely to make sure I have the right end of the stick so to speak.

Is there any hard evidence that the above hypothesis is true? Has anyone documented a case where an individual developed H5N1 infection more than once? Have any cases of H5N1 infection demonstrated poor post infection antibody titres?

 

[Vibrant62]

Re: Can You Get H1N1 More Than Once?

No - this is purely hypothetical based on the results of this primate study, but the attack on dendritic cells and the effects on T cells (both essential for generation of long term immune responses) may explain why seroprevalence studies for H5N1 continue to show almost no evidence at all of subclinical infections in areas/ families/ communities where infection has been endemic, and there have been human cases.

I will have to hunt for the data, but I recall at least one long term follow up of some human h5N1 cases which indicated undetectable levels of antibodies a year post confirmed infection.

my post was a stretch, an idea; pandemic H1N1, like H5N1 infects deep lung tissues and dendritic cells. Will go a-finding the references as soon as I can, but it is no more than a hypothesis that may not bear scrutiny, and certainly would need more study.