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Discussion: Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) in Wuhan has been working with bats and coronavirus for many years - DNA manipulations, cloning.... - Ja

Beta CoVs have been regularly infecting humans but apart from SARS-1 & 2 have not been able to sustain H2H and have died out. It is not know what cell receptor these viruses use in their bat hosts but it is probably not ACE2 which has allowed a great deal of variation in the spike as it is not of great significance in its natural host. The wide divergence found in RaTG13, from most sarbetacovs, is likely to not have been a particular problem for it as it is unlikely to have much of an impact in bats. Similarly what ever mutation the progenitor of the SARS-2 had would not effect its replication in bats to a great extent but would have made it the one human, or other animal, infection able to sustain some level of host-to-host transmission until it hit on the form that allowed it to start the pandemic, likewise for the earlier jump into pangolins. None of this is likely to have happened in Wuhan as its geology does not support the caves used by the bats. The massive sandstone formations in Yunnan are where the caves, and bats, are located and the high seroprevalence in humans is found but this is about 1000km from Wuhan. The other human beta coronaviruses use various receptors MERS (CD26), OC43 & HKU1 (9-O-acetylated sialic acid) and SARS (ACE2)
 
Animal Origins of the Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus: Insight from ACE2-S-Protein Interactions

https://jvi.asm.org/content/80/9/4211

CONCLUSIONS

The intense scientific effort expended in describing SARS and SARS-CoV has provided a unique case study in viral evolution and zoonotic transmission. The SARS-CoV example underscores the need in some instances for a bridge species that is in direct contact with humans and that may guide virus evolution so as to permit emergence of a variant that can transmit efficiently among humans.

It highlights viral strategies that permit rapid adaptation to new species and shows that mildly pathogenic viruses may not remain so with changes in human and animal populations which increase viral diversity or the frequency of cross-species contacts. Experience with SARS-CoV has demonstrated the importance of field work that identifies and characterizes viruses and host factors in wild and domesticated animals. Further work in these directions may help anticipate and avoid the next SARS.

Important questions remain. What receptor does bat SARS-CoV utilize? If bats are indeed a reservoir of SARS-CoV-like viruses, when and in which species did these viruses acquire an S protein capable of using palm civet and human ACE2? Did SARS-CoV gain the use of ACE2 through recombination, and if so, with what virus? Are changes in the S protein that enhanced human-to-human transmission a probable consequence of incubation in palm civets and other animals or a unique event unlikely to recur? What changes in other viral proteins were necessary for SARS-CoV to transmit efficiently among humans?

Study of SARS-CoV suggests we should direct our attention to adaptation strategies themselves, such as reassortment (for influenza viruses) and recombination (for coronaviruses), rather than to the end products of these adaptations. It also suggests that further attention should be given to the possible emergence of dangerous variants of common pathogens, such as HCoV-NL63 and its animal equivalents. In short, there are more lessons to learn from SARS.
  • Copyright ? 2006 American Society for Microbiology
 
1 report, 4 theories: Scientists mull clues on virus? origin

By DARIA LITVINOVA and JAMEY KEATEN
today
...
Team member Vladimir Dedkov, an epidemiologist and deputy director of research at the St. Petersburg Pasteur Institute in Russia, summarized the four main leads first laid out at a marathon news conference in China last month about the suspected origins of the first infection in humans. They were, in order of likelihood: from a bat through an intermediary animal; straight from a bat; via contaminated frozen food products; from a leak from a laboratory like the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
...
He suggested frozen products on which the virus was found were most likely contaminated by infected people. An infected person also likely brought and spread the virus at the Wuhan market associated with the outbreak, where some of the contaminated products were later found.
...
?At this point, there are no facts suggesting that there was a leak? from a lab, Dedkov said. ?If suddenly scientific facts appear from somewhere, then accordingly, the priority of the version will change. But, at this particular moment, no.?
...
The international team was wholly reliant on data collected by Chinese scientists after the outbreak surfaced, and Dedkov called the visit to Wuhan an ?analytical trip, mainly for the purpose of retrospective analysis in the sense that we studied only those facts that were obtained earlier.?

?We did not collect any samples ourselves, we didn?t carry out any laboratory studies there, we just analyzed what we were being shown,? he said.
...
https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...theories-who-478237854902672ac53ab6d9dbfe59ec
 
1 report, 4 theories: Scientists mull clues on virus? origin

By DARIA LITVINOVA and JAMEY KEATEN
today
...
Team member Vladimir Dedkov, an epidemiologist and deputy director of research at the St. Petersburg Pasteur Institute in Russia, summarized the four main leads first laid out at a marathon news conference in China last month about the suspected origins of the first infection in humans. They were, in order of likelihood: from a bat through an intermediary animal; straight from a bat; via contaminated frozen food products; from a leak from a laboratory like the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
...
He suggested frozen products on which the virus was found were most likely contaminated by infected people. An infected person also likely brought and spread the virus at the Wuhan market associated with the outbreak, where some of the contaminated products were later found.
...
?At this point, there are no facts suggesting that there was a leak? from a lab, Dedkov said. ?If suddenly scientific facts appear from somewhere, then accordingly, the priority of the version will change. But, at this particular moment, no.?
...
The international team was wholly reliant on data collected by Chinese scientists after the outbreak surfaced, and Dedkov called the visit to Wuhan an ?analytical trip, mainly for the purpose of retrospective analysis in the sense that we studied only those facts that were obtained earlier.?

?We did not collect any samples ourselves, we didn?t carry out any laboratory studies there, we just analyzed what we were being shown,? he said.
...
https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...theories-who-478237854902672ac53ab6d9dbfe59ec


The "frozen" reports out of China did not start until the summer of 2020. I do not think "frozen" is the origin or the Chinese state media would have used this excuse earlier. I think the frozen reports were an attempt to blame new outbreaks on foreign sources and not on endemic disease. At that time China was blaming all confirmed new cases on foreign travellers and frozen food packaging. Because, of course, after the first couple of months China got rid of domestic COVID-19 in a country of 1.4 billion people. The only countries that have surpassed China's low infection rate are New Zealand (a remote island nation) and North Korea (with zero confirmed cases). Maybe we can learn some important COVID-19 avoidance techniques from North Korea.

I am looking forward to the intermediary animal being identified.
 
Hilarious after all the **** I got about airing this thread.....apparently top US medical officials agreed with the lab escape possibility all along....


Kaitlan Collins

@kaitlancollins
?
1h
?I do not believe this somehow came from a bat to a human,? former CDC Director Dr. Redfield tells
@drsanjaygupta
?Normally, when a pathogen goes from a zoonot to human, it takes a while for it to figure out how to become more & more efficient in human to human transmission.?
248
280
1K

@kaitlancollins

1h
Redfield said he thinks the virus originated inside a lab in China and ?escaped? ? not necessarily intentionally. (This all airs in a new Sanjay doc this Sunday night on CNN, which should be really interesting.)
 
Dr. Anthony Fauci on Friday blew off claims from former Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Robert Redfield that SARS-CoV-2 was created in a Chinese lab, saying Redfield was merely expressing an ?opinion.?

During the White House coronavirus briefing, Fauci said the virus that causes COVID-19 was likely already spreading in China weeks before it was detected ? which helped it become more contagious.

?The alternative explanation ? is that this virus was actually circulating in China, likely in Wuhan, for a month or more before they were clinically recognized at the end of December 2019,? Fauci explained. ?If that were the case, the virus clearly could?ve adapted itself to a greater efficiency of transmissibility over that period of time up to and at the time it was recognized.?

https://nypost.com/2021/03/26/fauci-refutes-ex-cdc-directors-claim-that-covid-came-from-lab/
 
I think both are true. I think the virus was more bat-like in the spring of 2019 and then an escape occurred but was not human efficient. After a few months (maybe 6) of limited spread in humans it evolved to be 100% human adapted.
 
NPR (15MAR2021):
WHO Points To Wildlife Farms In Southern China As Likely Source Of Pandemic
..China shut down those wildlife farms in February 2020...Those wildlife farms, including ones in the Yunnan region, are part of a unique project that the Chinese government has been promoting for 20 years now...exotic animals, like civets, porcupines, pangolins, raccoon dogs and bamboo rats..

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...-southwest-china-as-likely-source-of-pandemic
 
I think the most likely scenario is a direct jump from bats to humans somewhere in China's southern boarder area either in China or close by in a neighboring state - exactly where matters not. The second most likely is as above but with an intermediate animal host this host could of been live, or killed and frozen' but again which matters not. Lab escape is wildly unlikely IMO.
 
Les ?levages de rat de bambous portaient des panneaux ferm?s pour cause covid, voir lien fourni, en ce lieu, et aucun pr?levement n'existe ?
C'est pour sourire ?
Les pr?l?vements faits, ici ou la ont ?t? trait?s
par qui et o? ?
 
I have seen those hints that it may have come from a bordering state which is convenient because China can threaten that state with economic ruin...something like they are trying to do to Australia...sanctioning the UK...Canada may be next...just as long as they can blame someone else....I am sure the new rulers of Myanmar need some cash right about now.....
 
Sharon I have not seen anything about it coming from outside China I am basing my opinion on the geographic distribution of the bats and the locations from which the Chinese game and traditional medicine is sourced. I have no interest in blaming any country and do not care which side of the boarder the zoonotic event occurred, it is irrelevant. The trade wars going on between nation states are also totally irrelevant to bats, viruses, other animals or the people who share their habitat. The political spat cuts both ways with sanctions being applied in both directions lubricated with copious propaganda and misinformation all boring and not germane.
 
Hilarious after all the **** I got about airing this thread.....apparently top US medical officials agreed with the lab escape possibility all along....


Kaitlan Collins

@kaitlancollins
?
1h
?I do not believe this somehow came from a bat to a human,? former CDC Director Dr. Redfield tells
@drsanjaygupta
?Normally, when a pathogen goes from a zoonot to human, it takes a while for it to figure out how to become more & more efficient in human to human transmission.?
248
280
1K

@kaitlancollins

1h
Redfield said he thinks the virus originated inside a lab in China and ?escaped? ? not necessarily intentionally. (This all airs in a new Sanjay doc this Sunday night on CNN, which should be really interesting.)


Former CDC director believes virus came from lab in China


New Day

Former CDC Director Robert Redfield sits down with CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta to discuss the pandemic and shares his opinion about the origin of the Covid-19 virus.
Source: CNN

Video:
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/20...s/coronavirus/
 
Posted by tetano in post #370 above

Today, 12:07 PM
Dr. Anthony Fauci on Friday blew off claims from former Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Robert Redfield that SARS-CoV-2 was created in a Chinese lab, saying Redfield was merely expressing an ?opinion.?

During the White House coronavirus briefing, Fauci said the virus that causes COVID-19 was likely already spreading in China weeks before it was detected ? which helped it become more contagious.

?The alternative explanation ? is that this virus was actually circulating in China, likely in Wuhan, for a month or more before they were clinically recognized at the end of December 2019,? Fauci explained. ?If that were the case, the virus clearly could?ve adapted itself to a greater efficiency of transmissibility over that period of time up to and at the time it was recognized.?

https://nypost.com/2021/03/26/fauci-...came-from-lab/
1 - 4
4 comments

  • #370.1
    sharon sanders commented
    Today, 12:38 PM
    I think both are true. I think the virus was more bat-like in the spring of 2019 and then an escape occurred but was not human efficient. After a few months (maybe 6) of limited spread in humans it evolved to be 100% human adapted.
    • Edit
    • Flag

    #370.2
    JJackson commented
    Today, 02:33 PM
    I think the most likely scenario is a direct jump from bats to humans somewhere in China's southern boarder area either in China or close by in a neighboring state - exactly where matters not. The second most likely is as above but with an intermediate animal host this host could of been live, or killed and frozen' but again which matters not. Lab escape is wildly unlikely IMO.
    • Edit
    • Flag

  • #370.3
    sharon sanders commented
    Today, 03:23 PM
    I have seen those hints that it may have come from a bordering state which is convenient because China can threaten that state with economic ruin...something like they are trying to do to Australia...sanctioning the UK...Canada may be next...just as long as they can blame someone else....I am sure the new rulers of Myanmar need some cash right about now.....
    • Edit
    • Flag

    #370.4
    JJackson commented
    Today, 03:53 PM
    Sharon I have not seen anything about it coming from outside China I am basing my opinion on the geographic distribution of the bats and the locations from which the Chinese game and traditional medicine is sourced. I have no interest in blaming any country and do not care which side of the boarder the zoonotic event occurred, it is irrelevant. The trade wars going on between nation states are also totally irrelevant to bats, viruses, other animals or the people who share their habitat. The political spat cuts both ways with sanctions being applied in both directions lubricated with copious propaganda and misinformation all boring and not germane.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
JJackson - Here is what I was referring to:


This article is in CGTN, which is China Global Television Network, a government owned international media organization launched on December 31, 2016 in Beijing.

Hints and tips. "Frozen" really didn't catch on. China always tells you what they are gonna do. You just have to look.



Virus related to SARS-CoV-2 found in bats in Southeast Asia

Updated 15:03, 02-Mar-2021

snip

Southeast Asia ? a hotspot?

snip

The horseshoe bats studied in Cambodia, which harbor close relatives of SARS-CoV-2, are found across the Southeast Asia region. Other countries are thus likely to have bats with similar viral building blocks.

In Thailand, the discovery of the possible connection between horseshoe bats and the coronavirus linked to COVID-19 prompted Dr. Supaporn Wacharapluesadee, deputy chief of the Center for Emerging Infectious Disease of Thailand and a specialist in bat-borne viruses, to investigate whether bats in the country may share a similar genetic sequence.

Wacharapluesadee and her team conducted genomic sequencing on the bat samples collected from caves in Thailand. The research determined that it shares 91.5 percent of the genetic code of Sars-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.

snip

The hunt for the closest relatives of the pandemic virus is like searching for a needle in a haystack. But Wacharapluesadee believes it is likely they will find in Thailand's bats the same virus that causes COVID-19.

snip

Researchers in both Thailand and Cambodia are calling for more surveillance in the region, which is home to both a high diversity of bats and wildlife as well as wildlife trade and land-use change ? known drivers of emerging infectious diseases.

In the Southeast, examples of close proximity are endless, making the chances of spillover is highly likely.


more.....

zhttps://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-02-27/Virus-related-to-SARS-CoV-2-found-in-bats-in-Southeast-Asia-YefDgSnOhO/index.html


-------------------------------------------------

And I made the comment about the trade wars/spat etc. because if China is willing to engage strongly with some of the world's most prominent countries, think of what they might be willing to do to poor, destitute ones in their own region.
 
Last edited:
Dr. Anthony Fauci on Friday blew off claims from former Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Robert Redfield that SARS-CoV-2 was created in a Chinese lab, saying Redfield was merely expressing an ?opinion.?

During the White House coronavirus briefing, Fauci said the virus that causes COVID-19 was likely already spreading in China weeks before it was detected ? which helped it become more contagious.

?The alternative explanation ? is that this virus was actually circulating in China, likely in Wuhan, for a month or more before they were clinically recognized at the end of December 2019,? Fauci explained. ?If that were the case, the virus clearly could?ve adapted itself to a greater efficiency of transmissibility over that period of time up to and at the time it was recognized.?

https://nypost.com/2021/03/26/fauci-refutes-ex-cdc-directors-claim-that-covid-came-from-lab/

Fauci has a conflict of interest.

https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-b...us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741
Dr. Fauci Backed Controversial Wuhan Lab with U.S. Dollars for Risky Coronavirus Research

By Fred Guterl On 4/28/20 at 2:57 PM EDT
...
But just last year, the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases, the organization led by Dr. Fauci, funded scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and other institutions for work on gain-of-function research on bat coronaviruses.

In 2019, with the backing of NIAID, the National Institutes of Health committed $3.7 million over six years for research that included some gain-of-function work. The program followed another $3.7 million, 5-year project for collecting and studying bat coronaviruses, which ended in 2019, bringing the total to $7.4 million.
...
The NIH research consisted of two parts. The first part began in 2014 and involved surveillance of bat coronaviruses, and had a budget of $3.7 million. The program funded Shi Zheng-Li, a virologist at the Wuhan lab, and other researchers to investigate and catalogue bat coronaviruses in the wild. This part of the project was completed in 2019.

A second phase of the project, beginning that year, included additional surveillance work but also gain-of-function research for the purpose of understanding how bat coronaviruses could mutate to attack humans. The project was run by EcoHealth Alliance, a non-profit research group, under the direction of President Peter Daszak, an expert on disease ecology. NIH canceled the project just this past Friday, April 24th, Politico reported. Daszak did not immediately respond to Newsweek requests for comment.

The project proposal states: "We will use S protein sequence data, infectious clone technology, in vitro and in vivo infection experiments and analysis of receptor binding to test the hypothesis that % divergence thresholds in S protein sequences predict spillover potential."

In layman's terms, "spillover potential" refers to the ability of a virus to jump from animals to humans, which requires that the virus be able to attach to receptors in the cells of humans. SARS-CoV-2, for instance, is adept at binding to the ACE2 receptor in human lungs and other organs.

According to Richard Ebright, an infectious disease expert at Rutgers University, the project description refers to experiments that would enhance the ability of bat coronavirus to infect human cells and laboratory animals using techniques of genetic engineering. In the wake of the pandemic, that is a noteworthy detail.

Ebright, along with many other scientists, has been a vocal opponent of gain-of-function research because of the risk it presents of creating a pandemic through accidental release from a lab....

....

Three years later, though?in December 2017?the NIH ended the moratorium and the second phase of the NIAID project, which included the gain-of-function research, began. The NIH established a framework for determining how the research would go forward: scientists have to get approval from a panel of experts, who would decide whether the risks were justified.

The reviews were indeed conducted?but in secret, for which the NIH has drawn criticism. In early 2019, after a reporter for Science magazine discovered that the NIH had approved two influenza research projects that used gain of function methods, scientists who oppose this kind of research excoriated the NIH in an editorial in the Washington Post.

"We have serious doubts about whether these experiments should be conducted at all," wrote Tom Inglesby of Johns Hopkins University and Marc Lipsitch of Harvard. "[W]ith deliberations kept behind closed doors, none of us will have the opportunity to understand how the government arrived at these decisions or to judge the rigor and integrity of that process."
 
Emily, this is mudslinging.It is not acceptable in the Flutackers group giving voice to these accusations without foundation. GOF research is authorized, after the moratorium and is essential for a comprehensive understanding of microbial disease pathogenesis, prevention and treatment. Studies on dangerous pathogens are subject to extensive regulations.
 
I don't understand why you are accusing me of mudslinging just because we obviously disagree. In the US, we are free to point out conflicts of interest as we evaluate others' opinions. Having a conflict of interest is not a crime in the US.
 
I think the mudslinging is that it is not clear if Fauci specifically supported the work done at the Wuhan lab. It appears he supports gain-of-function research generally. The article implies he specifically was involved in the work done in Wuhan when in reality I do not think that has been established. Main stream media appears to mostly be concerned with clicks and they will throw anyone "under the bus" to get them.
 
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