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Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

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  • Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

    Emergence of seasonal influenza viruses type A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance in some European Countries at the start of the 2007-8 influenza season
    http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51648


    (The above raises a question and I have posted some preliminary thoughts below but would be interested in the thoughts of others.)

    This is a predictable and not particularly surprising development. Resistance has been seen before in both seasonal flu and HP AI H5N1.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
    The question which needs to be addressed – preferably collectively and under the guidance of the WHO – is what do we use Tamiflu for?
    <o:p></o:p>
    Tamiflu was developed as a treatment for seasonal flu, with the threat of an HP AI zoonotic emergence it has become our only extant weapon against a far greater potential enemy: Pandemic HP H5N1. That there are several known mutations that reduce the effectiveness of Tamiflu is well know as is the fact that using any antiviral will give a selective advantage to those mutations, when they occur. The more Tamiflu continues to be used to treat seasonal flu the higher the proportion of the circulating virus that will show some resistance. How much this matters depends on how correct Dr. Niman is in his estimation of the importance of recombination as the primary means of flu’s evolution. If evolution is largely confined to Reassortment and random mutations then having resistance in the seasonal flu gene pool does not greatly increase the risk of resistance in a pandemic form. If however Recombination is common, and a pandemic form emerges without resistance, it is likely to quickly acquire it by swapping genetic material with seasonal flu in cases of dual infection and a pervasive Tamiflu blanket.
    <o:p></o:p>
    So we return to the question of how do we use Tamiflu, do we try and restrict its use in seasonal flu cases – where we know it can do good – to preserve its usefulness to fight a pandemic which may not occur in the short term, may not be susceptible to Tamiflu and only really matters if recombination is a significant factor.
    <o:p></o:p>
    Personally I would favour making all doctors aware of the dilemma and recommending extreme restraint in its use. Where resistant cases are know greater efforts should be employed in quarantining patients to reduce the prevalence of resistant strains.
    <o:p></o:p>
    JJ

  • #2
    Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

    Originally posted by JJackson View Post



    So we return to the question of how do we use Tamiflu, do we try and restrict its use in seasonal flu cases ? where we know it can do good ? to preserve its usefulness to fight a pandemic which may not occur in the short term, may not be susceptible to Tamiflu and only really matters if recombination is a significant factor.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    <o:p></o:p>
    Personally I would favour making all doctors aware of the dilemma and recommending extreme restraint in its use. Where resistant cases are know greater efforts should be employed in quarantining patients to reduce the prevalence of resistant strains.
    <o:p></o:p>
    JJ
    Agreed, may be we can have a preview of what could happen, looking at the use of anti-biotics and MRSA and XDR-TB?

    However it seems not easy for doctors looking at a patient being very ill - influenza can be really nasty - and refrain from administrating Tamiflu?
    "Recommending extreme restraint" does not seem enough: guidelines, protocols should be developed?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

      Tamiflu resistance is already showing up in H5N1 cases. Wholesale use of Tamiflu blankets was bound to spell its quick demise. It is showing resistance in seasonal flus as well. The only thing it brought us was a little more time. While I am all for asking clinicians to not prescribe Tamiflu except for severe cases, I don't think many are going to be willing to comply. To many physicians don't believe bf is a real threat. I know my doctors don't think the virus will ever change to a human to human strain. From my point of view, Tamiflu is already going the way of the dodo bird.
      Please do not ask me for medical advice, I am not a medical doctor.

      Avatar is a painting by Alan Pollack, titled, "Plague". I'm sure it was an accident that the plague girl happened to look almost like my twin.
      Thank you,
      Shannon Bennett

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

        I had stored tamiflu and amantadine, hoping to use the combination if one of us faced infection.

        Do you think a combination might be more useful than a single anti-viral or is it likely that both will be useless by the time we might need them?
        "There's a chance peace will come in your life - please buy one" - Melanie Safka
        "The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be" - Socrates

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

          Prep, that is what some doctors are advocating. Keep your fingers crossed.
          Please do not ask me for medical advice, I am not a medical doctor.

          Avatar is a painting by Alan Pollack, titled, "Plague". I'm sure it was an accident that the plague girl happened to look almost like my twin.
          Thank you,
          Shannon Bennett

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

            Thanks Shannon! My eyes are crossed too.
            "There's a chance peace will come in your life - please buy one" - Melanie Safka
            "The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be" - Socrates

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

              Shannon
              I have been arguing that far too many eggs have been put in the Tamiflu basket for some time. To leverage and protect this investment I would like to see reduced prescription for seasonal flu use, combination therapy with ion blockers and increased buildup of antibiotics for secondary pneumonia (and any other common secondary infections which caused such loses in 1918). I agree we are in danger of severely blunting the only tool in our box. I would like to see efforts now to protect it from becoming totally useless by the time we really need it.

              Prepdeb
              Good thinking see links below.

              Low dose oral combination chemoprophylaxis with oseltamivir and amantadine
              http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/sho...ght=amantadine
              <HR SIZE=1>
              Amantadine-oseltamivir combination therapy for H5N1 influenza virus infection in mice

              </HR>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                the Tamiflu blankets can only "produce" resistance, if the virus survives after
                leaving the treated human. No h2h2h... yet.
                So, can it enter birds again, h2b ? Seems unlikely.

                The European strain was reported to have been introduced at several
                places independently, so if it was due to resistance-building, then this mutation
                probably happened some time ago, maybe in Asia.

                They might have recognized it .. but keep it secret. Not good to report
                that you created a resistant strain . The sequences might shed some light
                on the origin
                I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
                my current links: http://bit.ly/hFI7H ILI-charts: http://bit.ly/CcRgT

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                  Originally posted by gsgs View Post
                  the Tamiflu blankets can only "produce" resistance, if the virus survives after
                  leaving the treated human. No h2h2h... yet.
                  So, can it enter birds again, h2b ? Seems unlikely.

                  The European strain was reported to have been introduced at several
                  places independently, so if it was due to resistance-building, then this mutation
                  probably happened some time ago, maybe in Asia.

                  They might have recognized it .. but keep it secret. Not good to report
                  that you created a resistant strain . The sequences might shed some light
                  on the origin


                  shares of Biota and Biocryst didn't react.

                  Seems that peramivir doesn't work anyway ?
                  I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
                  my current links: http://bit.ly/hFI7H ILI-charts: http://bit.ly/CcRgT

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                    GSGS, it may have changed in Indon to a resistant form. They are investigating why there are so many more deaths there than elsewhere. The supposition is it has become Tamiflu resistant. Which means then that they either gave it to birds or, it did move from people back to birds.

                    See here credit Dutchy.

                    <!-- PRINT_FRIENDLY_SITE="ABC Radio Australia" --><!-- PRINT_FRIENDLY_URL="/ra" --><!-- PRINT_CONTENT_START -->
                    INDONESIA: Scientists worry bird flu strain is drug resistant - 28/01/2008


                    Indonesia has the world's highest number of bird flu deaths and now scientists are trying to find out why. One theory being tested is that the Indonesian strain of the H5N1 virus is less susceptible to conventional antivirals.

                    Presenter - Joanna McCarthy Speaker - Professor Anne Kelso from the WHO Collaborating Centre for Influenza in Melbourne, Dr Deoraj Caussy, Epidemiologist, World Health Organisation.

                    listen windows media > <!-- PRINT_CONTENT_END -->
                    Please do not ask me for medical advice, I am not a medical doctor.

                    Avatar is a painting by Alan Pollack, titled, "Plague". I'm sure it was an accident that the plague girl happened to look almost like my twin.
                    Thank you,
                    Shannon Bennett

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                      Every time I see *peramivir*, the phrase: "What on earth were they thinking?" goes through my head.

                      Actually, their testing went quite well until they decided to switch the size of the needle. Now...you would think that just maybe, with all the money that has gone into funding this research, someone would have thought for one second: I wonder if a shorter needle will work as well. A half inch is not very long and many people have that much extra fat on their arms.

                      They determined that about 1/3 of the participants did receive the injection deep into the muscle and the test results on those were good enough that they are continuing with the third phase May they not mess up this one.
                      The salvage of human life ought to be placed above barter and exchange ~ Louis Harris, 1918

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                        Shannon, I'm talking about H1N1, not H5N1.
                        Sorry if this was unclear.

                        Mixin, have you seen how the Biocryst shares went down ?
                        There must be more problems than just the needle length,
                        which could have been an excuse for other problems.
                        I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
                        my current links: http://bit.ly/hFI7H ILI-charts: http://bit.ly/CcRgT

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                          Nope, didn't understand that GSGS. Thanks for the clarification.
                          Please do not ask me for medical advice, I am not a medical doctor.

                          Avatar is a painting by Alan Pollack, titled, "Plague". I'm sure it was an accident that the plague girl happened to look almost like my twin.
                          Thank you,
                          Shannon Bennett

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                            Here, they just put out a new press release http://www.fiercebiotech.com/press-r...lopment-plan-0

                            First, they went back and did their homework on giving injections:

                            Additionally, pharmacokinetic studies have been completed that indicate that needle length impacts adequate and consistent systemic exposure to i.m. peramivir. These PK studies also provide guidance on the appropriate needle length to use in future studies to provide adequate drug exposure for subjects based upon an individual's body mass index (BMI) and gender.
                            Now they are putting off Phase III and rethinking doses. Maybe that's the reason for the stock drop? During a pandemic, a single dose would be far superior to having to go back for a second injection.

                            Based on these clinical results and virologic data, the Company believes that a single i.m. dose of 300mg peramivir can be a potentially clinically effective dose. Given the dose-response observed between the 150mg and 300mg doses in the Phase II trial, the Company also believes it is prudent to evaluate whether doses higher than 300mg provide additional efficacy. The Company has been limited in evaluating doses higher than 300mg due to the concentration of the formulation used in the Phase II trial. Alternative formulations are being developed, and should be available, that permit evaluation of a single dose higher than 300mg. BioCryst is now planning to initiate a Phase II clinical trial that will evaluate the 300mg dose and a higher dose of peramivir later this year. As a result, BioCryst will not continue to pursue a pivotal Phase III program for i.m. peramivir in the current influenza season.
                            The salvage of human life ought to be placed above barter and exchange ~ Louis Harris, 1918

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Discussion: A/H1N1 with oseltamivir resistance

                              usually, I'd expect that Tamiflu-resistence is very good news
                              for Biocryst and Biota.
                              Bad news for Roche, but Roche has many other activities.

                              I'm not sure whether that mutation also affects
                              Zanamivir or Peramivir but I suppose not ?!?

                              There was a paper last year...
                              I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
                              my current links: http://bit.ly/hFI7H ILI-charts: http://bit.ly/CcRgT

                              Comment

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