T-shirt mask could help in flu pandemic

[kr105]

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

How do you know? Have you measured it? Have you even tried it? It's easy to say the weave is too big, but what about the numbers these people measured? Measurements speak louder than words.

As to whether I would trust my life with it, I have bought 8 yards of heavyweight white t-shirt fabric and several containers of gentian violet, and I can sew. I also have been fit tested, and I both wear a respirator professionally, and know what a well-fitting one feels like. And I know for sure our agency is not stocked with enough cartridges to last the department a month. And also I have a brother in the National Guard, who expects to be mobilized, and does not expect to have any equipment at all issued to him. He, too, knows what he is doing. I will find out next month whether I would be mobilized.

In response, we know that the influenza a virus measures on the electron microscope between 80 and 120nm (nanometer) which is one millionth of a meter. This is a well documented fact and can be verified in any good virology textbook.

The homemade mask idea is based on a study done by Dr. Ariaki Nagayama out of Fukuoka University in Japan, in 2005. He submitted his study for peer review in November 2005 and it was published in the Journal of Infection and Chemotherapy in April, 2006. This Journal is the house publication of the Japanese Chemotherapy Organization. An abstract of this is on pubmed. Unfortunately the study itself will not be available on pubmed until January 2007. (They usually wait until the end of the year and then get in the entire volume and have it translated.) Two subscription services are offering it now for a fee (about $30) if you want to read it.

In the abstract, he writes: "Time-kill studies were carried out, and the virus titer was determined based on the 50% tissue culture infective dose (TCID50)" (Note that he does not give you the actual hard numbers of the results.) He further states: "The minimum inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of GV against bacteria were also determined, and the killing activities of the GV-dyed cloth were judged from viable cell counts. (But he doesn't give us cell counts or how many virus particles made it through the weave of the fabric.)

You mentioned that you purchased several yards of fabric. That had to have run at least $7. For that same amount of money, you could have purchased an N100 respirator which we know is 97% effective against viruses of this size. (Reference Canadian study of N95 vs N100 masks against virus particles).

The army is very concerned about this problem and is issuing N95 respirators (NOT masks) to staff. They are also issuing masks to all patients at the check in desks who display respiratory symptoms. They have changed over from Latex gloves to Nitrile for better protection. You mention that you are expecting to be mobilized, are you and your brother in healthcare?

K.

 

[wetDirt]

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

In the abstract, he writes: "Time-kill studies were carried out, and the virus titer was determined based on the 50% tissue culture infective dose (TCID50)" (Note that he does not give you the actual hard numbers of the results.) He further states: "The minimum inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of GV against bacteria were also determined, and the killing activities of the GV-dyed cloth were judged from viable cell counts. (But he doesn't give us cell counts or how many virus particles made it through the weave of the fabric.)

Perhaps he didn't measure breakthrough, only surface activity on the cloth itself.

You mentioned that you purchased several yards of fabric. That had to have run at least $7. For that same amount of money, you could have purchased an N100 respirator which we know is 97% effective against viruses of this size. (Reference Canadian study of N95 vs N100 masks against virus particles).

You are correct, one disposable N95 mask, good for a few hours. From the cloth, I could get several reusable masks that would be the equivalent of 50 N95 masks.

The army is very concerned about this problem and is issuing N95 respirators (NOT masks) to staff. They are also issuing masks to all patients at the check in desks who display respiratory symptoms. They have changed over from Latex gloves to Nitrile for better protection. You mention that you are expecting to be mobilized, are you and your brother in healthcare?

K.

You are correct, they are issuing masks to medical staff. My brother, as I said, is in the National Guard, and expects to be mobilized to replace police/highway patrol etc. They are providing no masks to those who will be out meeting the general public. No meds, no masks, nothing.
I am not in healthcare. But if mobilized, I would be involved in safely shutting down manufacturing plants/refineries/etc that use toxic chemicals, or responding to spills, leaks, etc. I would need the big respirator for working around hazardous materials. But I don't plan to wear it to buy gas, assuming gas can be bought during a pandemic emergency. While I agree that medical staff need a higher level of protection, I also recognize that public safety people need something too, and will need it day in, day out. And the little over-the-ear thingies don't impress me.

 

[kr105]

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

A T-shirt mask is better than nothing at all.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one!

My concern is that a person may gain a false sense of security wearing a home-made mask. This in turn might alter their decision making process and result in their going into an area (which they would have avoided if unprotected) and being exposed.

K.

 

[kr105]

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

Wet,

Check Library dust's online website. They offer the 3M 8233 N100 respirators at a good price (cheapest I've found so far.)

K.

 

[kr105]

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

I must admit that on the boards I visit (perhaps I don't get around enough?) there is a complete lack of understanding of those of minimal means. It's like we're invisible. Ir's taken me months to put together the barest necessities, while the discussions tend towards the elaborate - almost status symbol - preps.

It may be all about choices we make with disposable income. I work with a nurse who makes a good salary and is always crying poverty. Yet she always goes out to lunch with the girls, often brings in Starbucks in the morning and smokes like a banshee.

My prep money came from not going on vacation this year, bringing my lunch to work every day and bringing my soda to work every day too. We don't go to the movies anymore and instead go to free events (like fireworks and street fairs), bringing out lunch and snacks. This is the choice that was right for us.

Because of these economies, we have saved up for the "status symbol" preps that will make our lives more comfortable. Our city went under water this past month (flooding after heavy rains and dams cracked/overflowed.) We were comfortable. We had a/c, electricity and hot meals.

We are not wealthy by any means. But we are comfortable and "middle class". I grew up in an area that was the poster-child for urban blight. I studied and worked hard to get thru school and have the student loans to prove it. It was not always fun being ridiculed by the "Cool Kids" for studying and getting good grades (these were usually the kids who wanted to copy my homework later on.) No, I did not go party every weekend - I had too much homework to do. I REFUSE TO APOLOGISE TO ANYONE FOR WORKING HARD AND GETTING AHEAD. If because of my choices and decisions we are comfortable - we've earned it the hard way.

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

Re: This is popping up all over the internet

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one!

My concern is that a person may gain a false sense of security wearing a home-made mask. This in turn might alter their decision making process and result in their going into an area (which they would have avoided if unprotected) and being exposed.

K.

My concern is that there are only so many N95 and N100 in the world. In a pandemic that lasts 18 months, the world's supply of masks may be exhausted. There needs to be alternatives. They are not preferred, but they may reduce viral load, and hence, help reduce morbidity and mortality.

 

[Laidback Al]

Re: Masks

Re: Masks

I think everyone is agreed that masks need to be an important part of one's prep kit for an H5N1 pandemic. But, which masks or respirators?

Within one's monetary and fiscal constraints, commercially manufactured masks should be the first choice. Commercially manufactured N95 and N100 masks and respirators, fitted and used properly, will undoubtedly be more effective than any homemade t-shirt masks.

But, what happens when there are not enough commercially produced masks and respirators to go around when a pandemic strikes? T-shirts or cotton cloth masks may be the best that will be available.

At least two months ago, I was in an industrial supply store and they informed me that all 3M N95 disposable masks in the warehouse were sold out and they would not have them in stock before the end of the year.

In mid August I posted an article that indicated that the US as a whole will not have a big enough stock pile of masks if a pandemic arrives.
(see http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9365) Based on the statistic presented in the article, by the end of 2007, the US will only have stockpiled 100 million masks. That would be enough for 40 mask changes for each nurse in the US. (Health Care Workers, how many day's supply is that? 4-5?) What about doctors, coughing patients, etc.? If this article is correct we will run out of commercial, disposable masks in short order.

So, if you are serious about prepping, the time to buy commercial masks and respirators is NOW, not when the MSM proclaims a pandemic. By then it will be too late and your only options will be T-shirts, cotton cloth, diapers, or whatever.

 

[kr105]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

I've stocked in a fair number of masks -- making a wholesale purchase to reduce the cost. Even with that I know that my personal supply will not last past the first wave.

My "game plan" so to speak is to mark the date each mask was used and put each one back in their plastic bag. Then back in it's carton. I will reuse the masks in rotation when I run out of fresh ones.

There is only so long it (the virus) can last without an appropriate environment. About a year ago I read a paper that stated it could survive 2 days without a host.

There is a study on pubmed (Journal of Infectious Diseases, July 1982) where they actually studied the survival rate of influenza a and b viruses on a variety of surfaces. " Both influenza A and B viruses survived for 24-48 hr on hard, nonporous surfaces such as stainless steel and plastic but survived for less than 8-12 hr on cloth, paper, and tissues. "

Since H5N1 is an influenza a virus, keeping masks in storage for a month should render them reusable in an emergency. I also have a germicidal light to use for additional disinfection. Given the choice of t-shirt masks or reusing N100 -- I'll try the reuse method.

 

[prepdeb]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

Excellent idea KR. I will do the same with our N95 masks.

I also picked up some of the washable masks I mentioned in another thread, but since my husband plans to continue working, he will need a steady supply.

I work from home so I'll have far less need for masks.

 

[Christian Rivers]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

Some more work is needed to model the ramifications of stockpiling masks and other health supplies. I did a cursory serach on the topic on PubMed and Google and in terms of models, stockpiling almost exclusively refers to antiviral drugs or vaccines.

We all agree that a tropical storm or hurricane as a disaster is less severe than a pandemic. Now look at South Florida and gasoline today. They are already running out at gas stations because the reservoir in the gas stations is less than the cumulative reservoir capacity of the majority of households.
Last year's Gulf Coast rescue and recovery efforts were hampered by the civilian draw down on gasoline.

So now consider, if a sizable segment of the population purchases masks ahead of production capacity. Hospitals, clinics and special needs shelters will run out of supplies for health care workers in a matter of weeks.
Will the health care workers die off due to heavy exposure and lack of supplies? Is the casual use of N95 masks justified relative to the needs of acute care hospitals? What about workers who cannot engage in social distancing such as nursing homes and prisons? What happens later to the survivors of the pandemic but the inhabitants of a society without health care workers? I am sure other examples abound.

Even if stockpiling is practical, we have to consider the ethical practices when the time comes. At the very least, most people would have to consider
bartering to find the most useful mix of supplies.
C R

 

[kr105]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

Hi Chris,

I'm in healthcare (family practice) and will be on the front lines of this. Our clinic is huge and we see over 10,000 patients a month. The supply chain is adequate for normal problems, but we do run short at times. I've learned not to depend on them for supplies and for prudence sake, I am stockpiling.

I agree with your premise that there will be shortages and maybe healthcare should have first crack at them. With that in mind, I have to say that I question the sanity of my coworkers. When I mention H5N1 and pandemic flu, my fellow providers scoff. I had a feisty discussion with the doc in the office next to mine and he really does not believe it's going to happen. These are people who should know better!

So if folks in the profession are refusing to prepare where does that leave us?

I've said it before: Mother Nature is getting ready to add some chlorine to our gene pool. Survival will have nothing to do with race, religion, education or affluence level. It will come down to who has common sense and who does not. If you prepared, you have a better chance of surviving this mess. If you did not -- or expected "the government" or "the boss" to provide for you, you will not.

It may not be H5N1 - it may be something totally different, but in our recorded history, every century we have a pandemic illness which wipes out a percentage of the population. It never ceases to amaze me when people assert that we are technologically superior so we will escape it. I'm sure every group before us said the same thing.

I hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

(Can I get off my soapbox now?)

K.

 

[Snowy Owl]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

Thank you Christian Rivers to introduce this aspect of the resources available and the ''buyers''.

About 1 year and half ago, some people 'saw' that the prices of Tamiflu would go up. They bought a lot, too much for resonnable personnal use, they now have problems.

Minsinisters, and paticularly people who 'serve' altruistically, are not totally alone.

Some are fast to see opportunities to make money despite what they cause, and they constitute the majority of the fading resources.

Although still in a reactionnary mode, Public Health Office will need soon the power of acquisistion.

Resources are low, that is quite apparent.

Let's not forget that Public Health Officers of most States and Provinces, are, under the National Security Legislation, that is in am unfolding pandemic, are allow to seize unreasonnable quantities of Preps.

 

[Laidback Al]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

I would like to add an additional perspective to Snowy Owl's.

.....So now consider, if a sizable segment of the population purchases masks ahead of production capacity. Hospitals, clinics and special needs shelters will run out of supplies for health care workers in a matter of weeks.
Will the health care workers die off due to heavy exposure and lack of supplies? Is the casual use of N95 masks justified relative to the needs of acute care hospitals? What about workers who cannot engage in social distancing such as nursing homes and prisons? What happens later to the survivors of the pandemic but the inhabitants of a society without health care workers? I am sure other examples abound.

Even if stockpiling is practical, we have to consider the ethical practices when the time comes. At the very least, most people would have to consider
bartering to find the most useful mix of supplies.
C R

This issue of ethical behavior crops up in pandemic discussions every so often. It is an issue that needs to be considered now, while we still have time to invent scenarios and ask ourselves how we would respond.

As far as mask go, I don't think that readers of Flutrackers have the purchasing power to affect or corner the market on N95+ disposable masks or respirators. From a world wide perspective the choices regarding masks and respirators made by readers of this forum will not have any impact on the production or availability of these items.

I do think that people have a moral obligation to take care of themselves and their loved one first. If someone has the monetary and financial resources to build a substantial stockpile of prep items, including masks, for themselves and their family, it is not unethical. If someone hoards more masks then they need for themselves e.g. to barter or sell, the situation becomes a little less clear. Will these people be "profiteers" or just shrewd business people? See the Sub-forum on Avian Flu - Business & the Economy for additions discussions about ethical economic behavior in a pandemic. http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

I don't think that individuals who are foresighted enough to prep for a pandemic need to feel guilty about purchasing masks, medicines, or other items necessary for survival in the event of a pandemic.

Health Care Workers (HCW) on this and other forums have routinely lamented the fact that PPE in hospitals and nursing homes is barely adequate for current staffing needs. A patient surge from a pandemic would not only overwhelm the staff and personnel but would quickly exhaust all of the PPE supplies. I think the ethical issue that should be discussed, in light of a possible pandemic, is why hospitals, nursing homes, and other patient care facilities are not ramping up and and stockpiling supplies while there is still time and there are still supplies that can be purchased.

 

[T. ModestoPhD]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

Both points are valid in my opinion. Those who work hard should not be made to feel guilty that they have worked diligently to prepare for emergencies as well as to strive and achieve a comfortable living in ordinary circumstances. On the other had there are many who are not educationally, emotionally and socially privileged and able to make the choice to prepare, not at this time at least. No one should be looked down upon because they have not prepared or prepared like we think everyone should. Unless we have walked in their shoes and lives we will never know or understand what their circumstances are REALLY like or how they have been influenced over time.

We all need to prepare. Besides preparing ourselves, we need to think of how we can individually and collectively find meaningful ways that those socio-economic groups who have not prepared can identify with ?special others? who can then help educate them in preparation practices. How many ?stars? and athletes are being role models and saying hey I am preparing for a disaster, be ?cool with me? and also prepare. Not many from where I sit, I am willing to stand corrected. Oprah Winfrey did much by having an educational show on pandemic influenza. She began to educate a nation and in many circles the world. Instead of giving out splashy Christmas / holiday gifts on TV, I really would have cheered if she had given out a one month self reliance canister of emergency food and support supplies and showed that she has her own stock of tuna and other emergency supplies. We need role models, all of us especially during difficult nd emotionally challenging times. Next year we will see at the Super Bowl advertisements for all sorts of things. Wouldn?t it be great if we could have a donated donated 30 second ad encouraging emergency preparedness? Could kids trick or treat not for pounds of candy but encourage pounds of disaster prep boxes to be stored for when a disaster is eminent so that all could have some? To my way of thinking that would certainly be a better ?teachable moment? for our children in care and compassion for all humanity than to encourage them to beg for treats instead of earning them and gorge on sugar and self indulgence.

It is unrealistic to think we can save the world and that no one is going to be left behind. I?ll do all I can so that as few as possible in my circle of reference will be left behind but I can not set up myself or my country / world to think that we are super heroes that in a mighty flash we can rescue all from the plights of the world difficulties and disasters as well as simultaneously save the cat up in the tree. Realistically we are ordinary people, who have been given a great gift of awareness and ability to prepare our selves and our loved ones for major life challenges including that of medical disasters such as pandemics. We should all be thankful for that gift of disaster preparation ability and foresight. Imagine if everyone ( from presidents and super billionaires to the common person on the street pledged to donate from 1-10% of their preparations to work towards meeting the needs of the others less fortunate ? just imagine how much and how far that would go to help.

 

[Shannon Bennett]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

First, I would like to welcome T.Modesto to our circle of contributors. (Modesto is close to where my son lives and where dh went to graduate school).

Ethically I am in the group of prep for yourself then think how you can help others. Sort of along the lines of put the air mask on yourself on a plane, then help those around you. I would love to inspire the world to not only take prep precautions but move the leaders of the world to take decisive steps to combat the flu where it has become endemic thereby protecting the rest of us. I fear my voice is small and muted, however. Our medium is public but how many actually read and internalize what is written? We see a steady increase in patients and a growing number of sick. The virus appears to be mutating to accommodate humans and to ignore Tamiflu. The disease is untracked in a large part of Asia. The virus is rampant in Indonesia without any hope of control. The press is lackadaisical at best and criminally absent at worst (with a few notable exceptions). Who heeds our call? Why would they prepare given the disparaging press? How can many who would prep if they could but, do not have the means to do so? What can and should they be doing? And surprisingly, how many have the skills to survive if forced into a protracted quarantine? We are starting with so many unknowns and so very many obstacles. My own philosophy is I cannot think of the blockades now or I will sink into apathy. One step at a time and one solution at a time. Every person we reach has saved at least one more and possibly many more. Just keep plugging away and pray our words are heard and our mission is moving forward.

 

[kr105]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

T.M.

I agree with you!

Each week when I "prep" shop, I add in additional supplies to "share". The question that is often asked - is how to safely give out supplies.

It has been pointed out that handing supplies out at the door (to anyone who rings the bell and asks,) will set you up for a future robbery. Yet personally, I could not sleep on a full stomach, knowing I had said no to a family at my door.

It's all well and good to prep to survive - but at what cost? Our humanity?

My decision was tending towards not answering the door and waiting for those begging to leave the block. Give them a few minutes and go out in the car and look for them. (How far could they get on foot?) I would quickly roll down the window and toss a bag of food out, then drive away. They would not know where I lived or who their benefactor was. If they had a car right there and followed me, I would drive to the police station.

Alternately, (for neighbors) I would drop off food, on their doorstep, at night - ring the doorbell and quickly leave. Again, no one the wiser as to who did it.

I would be interested in your thoughts on this and if you see another solution to the issue of how to help, yet keep your family safe.

K.

 

[T. ModestoPhD]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

very well put!
PS now you have me REALLY wondering where someone else went to school and where another person lives? Hhhhmmmmm Mysteries of life make the journey more interesting! (Please note the RARE use of a smile figure! My late mother who loved them would be pleased.)
TM

 

[Laidback Al]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

...

My own philosophy is I cannot think of the blockades now or I will sink into apathy. One step at a time and one solution at a time. Every person we reach has saved at least one more and possibly many more. Just keep plugging away and pray our words are heard and our mission is moving forward.

Shannon, I occasionally check the active user statistics. Sometimes there are 2-3 times as many guests signed on as members. These guests are reading, if not posting. I believe that the message is getting out and hopefully distributed. I just hope there is time for the message to spread among more people.

 

[Shannon Bennett]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

Al, you are absolutely right. If we didn't have more people reading then we see posting, I would feel like giving up. As frustrating as this situation is, I do think many have decided the better part of valor is self-preparedness. And I must assume at least some of them have also shared the prep idea with friends and family. We won't reach most though until the press finally wakes up and realizes that the situation in Asia is getting steadily worse, not better. More victims, and no tracking, a disquieting resistance to Tamiflu now being observed and, no word of containing the region infected. Step by step, inch by inch we see the weight on the scale increasing. But because the scale doesn't read a sudden increase in weight no one is concerned. If you could show the worlds people the difference between victims from September 1 of last year, and September 1 of this year, I think you could make an argument that would alert at least a few. Sometimes however, it seems we are standing on the edge of the precipice yelling our heads off and the only thing we hear is our own echo reverberating off the canyon walls. No one hears but us. Few respond outwardly to our call or heed our warning.

 

[Snowy Owl]

Re: What to do about Masks?

Re: What to do about Masks?

Shannon,

A couple of months ago, a Health Minister of an Indian Province ask some specs on Mosquitoes control and the Chickungunya.

Few days later we have learn that he was the decider for 31 millions people.

Yes we have a reach, and by deciders mostly.

Yes we contribute in kickstarting, ramping up awareness, preps and on how to cope.

Again thank you to all of you who so kindly and generously dare to care.