Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

[Nancy]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

I think I remember reading someplace on FT that H5N1 is probably also spread through infected cages and egg carriers. This would not require the survival of infected birds, just bad hygiene, which is probably widespread in developing countries (read the current posts on life in China for an eye-opener).

Note that I am not tyring to argue that wild birds don't carry Qinghai H5N1, only suggesting an additional method for spread among chickens.

 

[HenryN]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

I think I remember reading someplace on FT that H5N1 is probably also spread through infected cages and egg carriers. This would not require the survival of infected birds, just bad hygiene, which is probably widespread in developing countries (read the current posts on life in China for an eye-opener).

Note that I am not tyring to argue that wild birds don't carry Qinghai H5N1, only suggesting an additional method for spread among chickens.

H5N1 was in China in 1996 (and probably before). Prior to Qinghai Lake, NONE of the countries west of China had H5N1.

Local spread is possible, but the expanded western geographical reach of H5N1 went from nature reserve to nature reserve in 2005 and 2006 and ALL was Qinghai.

Lots of woulda shoulda couldas, but Qinghai H5N1 is spread by migratory birds.

 

[canagica]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Handwaving at its best. ALL isolates were Qinghai and transported and transmitted by migratory birds. NONE of the countries west of China had H5N1 prior to Qinghai Lake. The lead author was from bioinformatics and "discovered" that Qinghai was different (which was known in July, 2005).

I appreciate your opinion, Dr. Niman, but isn't it a bit ironic that what you are arguing is that your armwaving is better than another's? Your above post is a bit like me posting that your backround is in virology, and then you "discovered" that birds can migrate (and by implication your statements on wild birds should be discarded). That is neither accurate nor fair.

A question to consider in the implication of wild birds (or trade, for that matter) as a singular source of transport and transmission is this question:

Where is all of the Q-H5N1 from birds that migrate south and East of Qinghai Lake?

According to the asian migratory flyways map, it could influence both the Central Asian and the East Asia/Australia flyways. Finally, why is it apparently absent from so many countries that lie along each of these flyways? Notice-none of these statements write off wild birds as a vector, and if there are answers to them that support your opinions, then I would be more likely to agree with them. But until then, I would have to agree with you that it is all just "armwaving", and Im surpised (and a bit disappointed) that there aren't a few more tired arms out there.

 

[HenryN]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

I appreciate your opinion, Dr. Niman, but isn't it a bit ironic that what you are arguing is that your armwaving is better than another's? Your above post is a bit like me posting that your backround is in virology, and then you "discovered" that birds can migrate (and by implication your statements on wild birds should be discarded). That is neither accurate nor fair.

A question to consider in the implication of wild birds (or trade, for that matter) as a singular source of transport and transmission is this question:

Where is all of the Q-H5N1 from birds that migrate south and East of Qinghai Lake?

According to the asian migratory flyways map, it could influence both the Central Asian and the East Asia/Australia flyways. Finally, why is it apparently absent from so many countries that lie along each of these flyways? Notice-none of these statements write off wild birds as a vector, and if there are answers to them that support your opinions, then I would be more likely to agree with them. But until then, I would have to agree with you that it is all just "armwaving", and Im surpised (and a bit disappointed) that there aren't a few more tired arms out there.

There are many migrating strains. Qinghai flew into Japan and South Korea this season.

The data on Qinghai are positive and quite real. The data against migratory birds is negative and nonsense.

These issues were discussed at length in the summer of 2005, and the arguments made then have been supported by hard data again and again.

 

[Mamabird]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Where is all of the Q-H5N1 from birds that migrate south and East of Qinghai Lake?

Some have speculated that the Fujian strain has become more dominant in these areas for many reasons, not the least of which being that certain vaccinations of domestic poultry may have helped eliminate the other strains. It would be unwise to believe that the Qinghai strain is in anyway limited to certain geographic areas. It has proven to be a virulent bug, and one that has many human genetic characteristics as well. Surveillance being what it is in many countries does not necessarily eliminate these strains from being present in wild fowl.

 

[canagica]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

We should be desperately seeking a new way to test this wildfowl in order to gain more positive results. For if we are getting thousands of negative tests, yet H5N1 appears with regularity along these routes, then we are missing either a test or a trigger.

Agreed! Most (if not all) of the tests being used for sampling were developed for the poultry industry, and little is known about their accuracy. I was at an AI workshop a month ago with some folks from various US agencies and this came up. According to the representative from the USGS-NWHC, they are in the process of increasing their research lab space with that objective high on the list.

 

[scottmcpherson]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Some have speculated that the Fujian strain has become more dominant in these areas for many reasons, not the least of which being that certain vaccinations of domestic poultry may have helped eliminate the other strains. It would be unwise to believe that the Qinghai strain is in anyway limited to certain geographic areas. It has proven to be a virulent bug, and one that has many human genetic characteristics as well. Surveillance being what it is in many countries does not necessarily eliminate these strains from being present in wild fowl.

Yes, Dr. Webster did a paper on this a few months ago, which got the Chinese government all worked up and in denial.

We all know influenza plays "king of the mountain" and if Fujian is overriding Qinghai in southeast Asia, as Webster claims, then the answer must be that.

 

[canagica]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Some have speculated that the Fujian strain has become more dominant in these areas for many reasons, not the least of which being that certain vaccinations of domestic poultry may have helped eliminate the other strains. It would be unwise to believe that the Qinghai strain is in anyway limited to certain geographic areas. It has proven to be a virulent bug, and one that has many human genetic characteristics as well. Surveillance being what it is in many countries does not necessarily eliminate these strains from being present in wild fowl.

[emphasis added by me]

That's precisely the point I'm trying to make; surveillance of both wild fowl and trade (legal and illegal, poultry and pet/caged bird, etc.) being what it is, does not necessarily eliminate these strains from being present in either wild fowl and/or trade materials.

 

[cartski]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

H5N1 was in China in 1996 (and probably before). Prior to Qinghai Lake, NONE of the countries west of China had H5N1.

Assuming they were testing for H5N1 before 1996 in countries west of China?

J.

 

[HenryN]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Yes, Dr. Webster did a paper on this a few months ago, which got the Chinese government all worked up and in denial.

We all know influenza plays "king of the mountain" and if Fujian is overriding Qinghai in southeast Asia, as Webster claims, then the answer must be that.

There are several answers. Most of the testing in southern China is done by Hong Kong, and the testing material is feces collected at live markets. Qinghai is at higher levels in the upper respiratory tract, so the sample selection alone may bias results. In their PNAS publication, the vast majority of isoaltes were Fujian, although Qinghai was detected in Shantou.

More Qinghai would be in northern China, but most of the recent sequences have been withheld. Qingai was found in Liaoning Province. More recently, South Korea and Japan found Qinghai.

However, detection of Qinghai is most common in countries west of China, where ONLY Qinghai was found. Again there is a detection problem. Other than Russia and Egypt, Qinghai is typically found in DEAD wild birds or poultry. In western Europe, Qinghai was not reported until birds (mostly swans) began to die in February, 2006. The reports exploded in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, India, Afghanistan. In all, about 40 countries reported H5N1 for the first time in the winter / spring of 2006. The H5N1 was in dead birds and ALL isolates were Qinghai (and many countries in Europe found H5N1 ONLY in wild birds).

The testing in live wild birds is abysmal, and most conservation groups cite the thousands of negatives they have generated from LIVE wild birds. Egypt found H5N1 in a live healthy teal, but only after trying VERY hard (bird was initially negative).

The conservation groups have a VERY clear track record. They have NEVER found H5N1 in a live wild bird ANYWHERE, including Europe and Africa, were H5N1 is widespread.

The story on Qinghai H5N1 transport and transmission by wild birds is quite clear, and has been clear since mid-2005.

 

[scottmcpherson]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Yes, Dr. Niman, excellent point about japan and Korea showing Qinghai. Had forgotten about that.

 

[AlaskaDenise]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

I'm personally convinced that the initial spread to an area is usually from wild birds, with other methods adding to the whole mess.

However, is Qinghai-like material in any vaccinations, which could account for spread via fecal matter from asymptomatic vaccinated carriers?

.

 

[Johnny Yuma]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

I, personally, am absolutely certain that H5N1 is present in wild birds, and spread by wild birds. H5N1 could possibly be spread by a lot of other living things as well, as in the insect kingdom.

BUT, I do not think humans can CATCH H5N1 from a wild bird.

These nonsense stories that wild birds do not carry H5N1 appear with regularity.

I believe they are intended to keep certain individuals from machine gunning the skies and panicking whenever they see a bird.

Funding and testing for H5N1 presence has been extremely limited.

I am starting to worry that H5N1 can be found wherever and whenever it is looked for worldwide.

We have not had the capacity or ability to test appropriately for H5N1. This problem needs to be solved.

There must also be some "double testing" in separate labs to verify, account, and report H5N1 lab results appropriately and as transparently as possible.

 

[HenryN]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Commentary at

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/04200701/H5N1_Migration_Europe_Africa.html

 

[Mamabird]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

I, personally, am absolutely certain that H5N1 is present in wild birds, and spread by wild birds. H5N1 could possibly be spread by a lot of other living things as well, as in the insect kingdom.

BUT, I do not think humans can CATCH H5N1 from a wild bird.

How about Azerbaijan in early 2006? See excerpt from report below:

"Close contact with and de-feathering of infected wild swans was considered to be the most plausible source of exposure to influenza A/H5N1 virus in the Salyan cluster, although difficulties in eliciting information were encountered during the investigation, because of the illegality of some of the activities that might have led to the exposures (hunting and trading in wild birds and their products). These cases constitute the first outbreak worldwide where wild birds were the most likely source of influenza A/H5N1 virus infection in humans."

 

[Johnny Yuma]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

MAMABIRD,

I would consider de-feathering and/or dressing/gutting a wild bird to be a VERY risky activity.

It would seem possible that H5N1 could be transmitted from the bird's blood, or parasites on the bird----if you had a cut on your hands and no gloves.

(I do not think you could get a cluster of human cases though.)

TO DATE----I do NOT think you can CATCH H5N1 from a wild

bird-----from stepping in or cleaning up bird poop, for instance.

Just think, if bird poop could transmit H5N1---half the world would be infected by now.

Bird poop is encountered very frequently in the daily life of most people.

Bird poop is everywhere.

 

[gsgs]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

MAMABIRD,

I would consider de-feathering and/or dressing/gutting a wild bird to be a VERY risky activity.

It would seem possible that H5N1 could be transmitted from the bird's blood, or parasites on the bird----if you had a cut on your hands and no gloves.

(I do not think you could get a cluster of human cases though.)

TO DATE----I do NOT think you can CATCH H5N1 from a wild

bird-----from stepping in or cleaning up bird poop, for instance.

Just think, if bird poop could transmit H5N1---half the world would be infected by now.

Bird poop is encountered very frequently in the daily life of most people.

Bird poop is everywhere.

bird poop may just only infect in rare cases.
You touch bird poop and then eat something with the hands.
Or it dries to dust and you breath it.

Maybe only genetically suspect people can get it. Maybe the initial
load has to be particularly high, else the immune system can handle
the situation and kill the invaders.
Or some other circumstances must be fullfilled, PH-value,temperature
of airways, presence or absence of nutritients or vitamins ,...,

When you get it through the mouth, it must either somehow
infect mouth-mucosa or teeth or go into the airways
by mouthbreathing or must be particularly lucky to survive
stomach acid in some small bone-hole or such.

 

[Mamabird]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

TO DATE----I do NOT think you can CATCH H5N1 from a wild

bird-----from stepping in or cleaning up bird poop, for instance.

As I recall there is a fairly recent study of those persons that routinely survey avian influenza in wild bird populations in North America. Analysis of their blood serum indicated antigens for almost every type of avian virus on the books. Now none of these workers showed any symptoms, including conjuctivitus, so no big deal. But it goes to show that in general if you are in close contact with sick animals, you may also be infected.

I will endeavor as time permits to locate this research.

 

[Mamabird]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Here is the conclusion from a small research study limited to the state of Iowa:

"The relative lack of antibody response in our study population, who had substantial exposures to waterfowl with influenza A infections, and in inoculated volunteers from Beare and Webster (12) suggests that avian influenza infections in humans exposed to wild waterfowl may occur more commonly than we are able to detect with current methods. Although the sample size of our study was relatively small, our results suggest that handling wild waterfowl, especially ducks, is a risk factor for direct transmission of avian influenza virus to humans."

Full study at: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no08/06-0492.htm

 

[Johnny Yuma]

Re: Study: Migratory birds not to blame for spread of avian flu

Here is what Dr. Webster of St. Jude said last fall 2006:


?At this time, I see no risk to hunters at all,? Dr. Webster added.

http://www.ducks.org/news/950/BirdFluMeetingBrings.html

Bird Flu Meeting Brings World?s Top Influenza and Waterfowl Authorities to the Table


Memphis, October 6, 2006 - Officials from Ducks Unlimited (DU) and the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (FWS) met today with Robert Webster, PhD, at St. Jude Children?s Research Hospital to discuss the latest developments in bird flu research. Webster is a world-renowned flu expert and professor of virology.

?The purpose of this summit was to talk about the current state of knowledge regarding bird flu and the implications for waterfowl hunters, the general public and habitat conservation,? said Ducks Unlimited Executive Vice President Don Young.


?Dr. Webster is the world?s leading bird flu authority,? Young continued. ?DU is the world?s largest waterfowl conservation group. And the Fish and Wildlife Service is conducting some of the first comprehensive sampling for the flu of its kind. It only makes sense to get the three groups together to discuss where we are and what we know about this virus.?

In addition to his position at St. Jude, Dr. Webster is a consultant to both the World Health Organization and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and is the Director of the U.S. Collaborating Center of the World Health Organization dealing with the ecology of animal influenza viruses.

Several key points emerged from the meeting. Most important is the virus hasn?t been found in the Americas.

?There is none of this virus in this part of the world,? Dr. Webster said. ?Without the virus in this hemisphere, standard practice of good hygiene is all you need to do.?

Dr. Webster says waterfowl hunters aren?t at risk, but they need to stay informed.

?There are no additional risks this year involved with hunting,? Dr. Webster said. ?Hunters should simply be aware that something is going on in other parts of the world, and stay informed.?

U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Director Dale Hall provided an update on its monitoring efforts regarding the virus. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service oversees migratory bird laws, and sets the season framework for waterfowl hunting seasons in the U.S.

?We?ve sampled almost 15,000 birds, and through the remainder of the hunting season we will continue those efforts,? Hall said. ?We expect to sample between 50,000 and 70,000 birds. So far, we have found no highly pathogenic H5N1 virus.?

Hall says some low pathogenic H5N1 flu has shown up, but that is normal.

Dr. Webster agreed, saying that the low pathogenic H5N1 strain is not uncommon in waterfowl, and does not cause illness in humans.

?People have got to understand that it?s out there, and will likely show up throughout the season,? he said. ?The public should not be worried when that happens.

?At this time, I see no risk to hunters at all,? Dr. Webster added.

According to Dr. Webster, surveying and sampling for avian influenza has never been done so extensively as it is now.

?These guys (FWS and DU) are doing what they need to do,? Dr. Webster said. ?So I?d tell hunters to continue to do what you do, but stay informed. After you hunt, follow standard hygiene practices.?

Contact: Laura Houseal
(901) 758-3764
lhouseal@ducks.org

With more than a million supporters, Ducks Unlimited is the world?s largest wetlands and waterfowl conservation organization. The United States alone has lost more than half of its original wetlands ? nature?s most productive ecosystems ? and continues to lose more than 80,000 wetland acres each year.

******I am worrying more about the state of our planet. Wild birds do not worry me (I don't hunt, though.) If I hunted, I would be very hygienic to be on the safe side.