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'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

Shiloh

Editor, Senior Moderator
Source: http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/586508

'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

June 20, 2009
Stories by Helen Branswell
The Canadian Press
TORONTO (Jun 20, 2009)

Whether speaking of a 58-year-old man or a 38-year-old woman or a little boy of nine, officials announcing swine flu deaths are almost always quick to note "underlying health conditions" may have contributed to the fatal outcome.

Asthma, heart disease, diabetes, maybe even obesity are among the conditions used to help explain why swine flu infection is hospitalizing and killing younger people, people who would be expected to make a full recovery from seasonal flu.

It could create the impression that only the sickly are dying from the new H1N1 flu virus -- a claim no one is making. To the contrary, many, including the World Health Organization, say between one-third and one-half of swine flu deaths have occurred in people who were previously healthy.

But how healthy is previously healthy? The answer depends on whom you ask.

Dr. Anand Kumar is a critical-care specialist who has been treating swine flu cases in embattled intensive care units in three Winnipeg hospitals.

He says a small portion of the ICU patients look like flu's typical victims, people with health conditions known to be badly exacerbated by a bout of influenza. But more are younger and -- until they got sick -- healthier than flu patients hospitals typically see during a regular influenza season.

"For the most part, these young, relatively healthy people aren't marathon runners or anything like that," he admits.

"They're normal people. ... If you asked them, 'Are you healthy?' they'd say, 'Yeah, pretty healthy."'

Dr. Michael Gardam, head of infectious disease prevention and control for Ontario's public health agency, believes the constant refrain of "underlying conditions" bespeaks a sort of wishful thinking, an attempt to explain away the unusual age range of the people the new virus is sending to hospital or to the morgue.

"That's the story that I think people haven't really registered," says Gardam. "We're clinging to these 'Oh, they had underlying illness, therefore it's OK."'

"But ... I would argue that the 30-year-old with mild asthma -- how big of an underlying illness is that compared to again the 80-year-old person with bad lung disease from smoking who's got heart disease? That's the usual group that unfortunately gets really sick with flu, not this healthy adult group."

You'll find little argument that this virus, at this time, is causing more severe disease in people far younger than those normally hospitalized and killed by flu or its complications in a typical flu season.

"This is not a disease of older adults. There's no question," says Dr. Allison McGeer, an influenza expert with Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital.

"For people under 50, this is a significantly more severe disease than seasonal flu. For people over 50, it's much better," she notes.

But are the people under 50 who are being badly hit by the virus specimens of perfect health or are many of them already shaded by the broad umbrella known as "pre-existing health conditions?" How you view a condition like asthma -- seen in 41 per cent of the hospitalized cases in New York City -- may influence how you answer that question.

"A lot of that is about labelling people," McGeer admits.

"Half of me doesn't want you to think you're diseased if you have asthma, and the other half of me wants you to get your flu vaccine because you're at increased risk."

"How do you walk that line?"

Year in and year out, public health authorities get plenty of evidence many people who have some health issues plunk themselves firmly on the "healthy" side of the divide.

Scads of people with asthma, diabetes and other conditions and women who are pregnant forego the flu shots public health officials urge them to get, suggests Dr. Scott Harper, an influenza expert with New York City's Department of Health.

"The majority of deaths that are being seen have well recognized underlying health risks," he insists.

One such potential new risk factor is obesity. An early study from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control suggested it may be contributing to poor outcomes in people who contract the new H1N1. The WHO is concerned about that possibility.

"Obesity is now a huge global problem," says Dr. Nikki Shindo, an expert with the WHO's global influenza program.

"And if obesity is a risk factor, then I would be very much worried about some of the populations that are living with obese conditions."
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

Why would obesity lead to poorer outcomes?

I haven't heard an adequate explanation.

.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

Why would obesity lead to poorer outcomes?

I haven't heard an adequate explanation.

.
Obese people are more likely to be diabetic, to have higher blood pressure and poor lipid levels, to have respiratory problems directly related to the weight itself (don't empty the lungs properly on each respiration), cardiac problems, etc, etc. If they're taking lipid medications, they may be on the verge of liver issues, if they're diabetic they may have poor kidney function. I don't think the issue is obesity itself, but all the related medical problems associated with it.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

Obese people are more likely to be diabetic, to have higher blood pressure and poor lipid levels, to have respiratory problems directly related to the weight itself (don't empty the lungs properly on each respiration), cardiac problems, etc, etc. If they're taking lipid medications, they may be on the verge of liver issues, if they're diabetic they may have poor kidney function. I don't think the issue is obesity itself, but all the related medical problems associated with it.

So an obese person without these issues should be fine? That could be proven by tracking others who are diabetic, high BP, poor lipids, cardiac problems, etc.

Many of the older population that are having mild cases of A/H1N1 are certain to have high BP and cholesterol, cardiac problems, etc. and be taking meds for them, yet most are okay. If the older population is surviving with these underlying problems, then there might be something else about the obesity. Given that 25% of the US population is obese, I would imagine some of them are among the mild cases that never seek help.

I'd like to see good followup on a few cases of obese that have NO underlying conditions. They may be missing something.

.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

Obese people are simply harder to take care of when critically ill than people at a healthy weight. Everything is harder from starting IVs to keeping them clean.

What's more, there is good evidence to suggest that the obese and overweight are immuno-compromised by this condition. This relates to their insulin resistance in some way or another and its affect on lymphocyte function. These immune cells in the obese are often described as "sluggish" compared to those from people at healthy weights.

So, it is biologically plausible that obesity could be a co-morbidity that contributes to risk for death from novel influenza. However, 40% of US citizens are obese or overweight meaning that 4 in 10 flu victims on average here should share this condition. For obesity to be a statistically significant mortality risk factor for death from novel influenza then, the percentage of those dying with this disease would need to exceed this level by a considerable amount given its high prevalence in the population and the relatively low number of deaths to date.

Only markers that exceed this standard should be considered risk factors.

GW
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

we also have to quantify the risk, estimate it.
If the risk is significantly but only slightly increased,
then who cares ? Except the researchers, of course.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

..........So, it is biologically plausible that obesity could be a co-morbidity that contributes to risk for death from novel influenza. However, 40% of US citizens are obese or overweight meaning that 4 in 10 flu victims on average here should share this condition. For obesity to be a statistically significant mortality risk factor for death from novel influenza then, the percentage of those dying with this disease would need to exceed this level by a considerable amount given its high prevalence in the population and the relatively low number of deaths to date.

Only markers that exceed this standard should be considered risk factors.

GW

That's what I was thinking, especially since another article said anyone even 20 pounds overweight is a risk - that's an enormous % of the US population - so they would NOT be a mild case, were that a significant factor. But we obvisouly have a much lower % of infected getting seriously ill.

.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

There is a persistent lack of anamnestic details about patients with fatal outcome (as seen with H5N1):

Have these patients been tested for:

-- HIV (most people infected with HIV don't known their status until they develop AIDS);
-- hepatitis (as above, a portion of Hep B infected people don't known they have caught the virus);
-- heart conditions (a number of young patient with heart failure arrives at ER without a history of previous diagnosis, even if involved in sports activity);
-- other infection, such as cytomegalovirus, epstein-barr virus;
-- hematological conditions: asymptomatic patient with low platelets and / or low white blood cells counts;
-- mycobacteria (typical and atypical);

The list may continue...

Until a clear data account for anamnestic history of patients as well as hystopathological findings and necroscopic evidences will be presented, we will continue to read about ''underlying medical conditions'' and people hospitalized could be treated with a standardized regimen perhaps out-of-date in the context of an influenza pandemic that hits young adults instead elderly people.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

anemnestic? preliminary findings or something to do with the blood serum? I don't understand this word and the usage here.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

Until a clear data account for anamnestic history of patients as well as hystopathological findings and necroscopic evidences will be presented, we will continue to read about ''underlying medical conditions'' and people hospitalized could be treated with a standardized regimen perhaps out-of-date in the context of an influenza pandemic that hits young adults instead elderly people.

I agree. Not knowing these details must be frustrating those treating novel H1N1 patients. THere must be some common thread(s) details within "underlying conditions". I hope it doesn't take another 80 years to figure it out (like 1918 flu - which we still don't fully understand, although large due to lack of samples).

Are there common symptoms, progressions, environmental conditions, etc. of these "surprising" cases?

.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

I agree. Not knowing these details must be frustrating those treating novel H1N1 patients. THere must be some common thread(s) details within "underlying conditions". I hope it doesn't take another 80 years to figure it out (like 1918 flu - which we still don't fully understand, although large due to lack of samples).

Are there common symptoms, progressions, environmental conditions, etc. of these "surprising" cases?

.

Worryingly, the news from Chile (about a suspected encephalitis case in a 18-year old patient) and from Canada (about ERs admissions with encephalitis) are without any doubts signalling additional clinical features of H1N1v infections.

If confirmed, neurological involvement could cause mid- and long-term fall-out into the health and social and economic status of communities currently hit by this pandemic.

It should remember the Italian experience after the 1888-89 pandemic of 'Nona' (also known as Russian influenza), when most young people died after severe neurological damages and a consistent portion of survivors developed in five-to-ten years after the first infection the post-encephalitis parkinsonism and dementia.

The 'Nona' pandemic is now considered as a cause of the massive number of people segregated in psychiatric hospitals in Italy, when a the end of '70 there were ten of thousands of long-term care patients, most in hospital since the great pandemic.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

neurological involvement also mentioned by St. Michael in this thread:
http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111842

.....ERs admissions with encephalitis) are without any doubts signalling additional clinical features of H1N1v infections.

...given that this has happened some in H5N1, what are the common factors?

I believe the surviving uncle in the Karo cluster had encephalitis.

Is this a function of an additional amino acid being added to the cleavage site, thereby allowing the virus to be cleaved by the enzymes present in spinal fluid?

Have sequences for the encephalitis patients been released?

.
 
Re: 'Pretty healthy' people dying from H1N1

Quick question ...

Would the 'underlying health conditions' from H1N1 deaths be representative of health conditions contributing to serious cases & hospitalisations?

I.e. Are there some conditions that are causing a lot of serious cases and/or hospitalizations, but are relatively easily treated in hospital so they are not currently represented in the deaths?

This may be a concern if a health system gets overloaded and can't give a fundamental level of care

e.g. if there is a shortage of ventilators, that could cause an spike in deaths due to respiratory problems relative to deaths attributed to people with underlying heart conditions, pregnancy or suppressed immune system. But it could be difficult to distinguish whether the cause was e.g. change to healthcare treatment in certain countries, or if the change is due to a variation in the virus itself.

..?
 
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