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NAMRU2 Issue

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

> According to the timeline posted above by Ningtyas, these differences have been brewing
> for almost 10 years.

the subject of the differences could change over time.
Often it's just differences about one issue which they don't want to talk
about in public. Then they come up with other pseudo-reasons
for the newspapers.
Reasons are usually easy to find, when you search for them.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Politicians from Jakarta this challenged Menkes and President SBY to immediately expel Namru from Indonesia.
"Buktikan if Menkes, SBY, and the people had sovereignty.
Expel Namru from the Department of Health and Indonesia immediately!
How come we let had the country in the country?" firm he.
http://www.eramuslim.com/berita/nas/8428162250.htm

I think a better translation will go like this:
This Jakarta politician challenged Menkes and Presiden SBY to expel NAMRU from Indonesia as soon as possible. "Prove us that Menkes, SBY, and the people have sovereignty. Expel Namru from Depkes and Indonesia right now. How come we let a state within a state?"

In my opinion, this is another key : a state within a state.
This is what some figures in Indonesia feel about NAMRU-2, and this is why the need of change if the lab operation to be continue.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

We have not seen any proof of the spying accusations yet.
Also it's not clear what is being spied on.

No need to close NAMRU2 if Indo is just afraid of spying.
They could just prevent the spying by suitable measures and
agreements instead.
As USA denies the spying-intent, they should accept those
conditions to prevent it.

Yes, there's no proof yet. However, there are many mysteries because of NAMRU's lack of transparency. Just one example here. In his letter to Menkopolkam, Menhan and Menkes few years ago, foreign minister stated that based on the record in his ministry, the number of NAMRU-2 staff who hold diplomatic passport were 34 personnels, while in NAMRU-2 homepage it was mentioned that the US personnels were 20 personnels.
Think of it. Why the difference? Where were/are the other 14? :)

I partly agree with your post.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Yes, there's no proof yet. However, there are many mysteries because of NAMRU's lack of transparency. Just one example here. In his letter to Menkopolkam, Menhan and Menkes few years ago, foreign minister stated that based on the record in his ministry, the number of NAMRU-2 staff who hold diplomatic passport were 34 personnels, while in NAMRU-2 homepage it was mentioned that the US personnels were 20 personnels.
Think of it. Why the difference? Where were/are the other 14? :)

I partly agree with your post.

I have to agree with gsgs that unsubstantiated allegations of spying are not helpful to the Indonesian case (the same for bio weapons). The term spying is inflammatory and can cover almost anything. If you mean might staff be asked questions about Indonesian attitudes, technological capabilities etc. as part of a HUMINT debriefing then quite possibly (but the same applies to businessmen and to most countries not just the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region>). If you mean primary function spy secondary function a bit of sequencing then why use NAMRU staff they are obviously military, have poor access to anything very useful and it generally makes no sense. As to the numbers discrepancy again I do not know but the logical assumption is 34 passports were issued but only 20 are still in country. Unless there is more evidence than a book keeping discrepancy it is a much bigger leap to assume they have all taken their diplomatic passports and gone undercover.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Sadly this kind of Indonesian domestic press - along with the low level of trust in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region> generally [1] - has probably made NAMRU's position untenable. While I doubt the average Indonesian had ever heard of NAMRU-2 for most of its existence; it appears they have now and what was a minor diplomatic problem is now a major public relations problem for both governments.<o:p></o:p>


[1] Indonesia happened to have been one of the countries included in sampling in last years PIPA 'Views of the United States'
Q4. How much do you trust the following countries to act responsibly in the world…the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN: auto auto auto 9pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 11.95pt; mso-yfti-irow: 0"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 130.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 11.95pt" vAlign=top width=174 colSpan=2>
Not at all <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
Not very much <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 11.95pt" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
Somewhat <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 11.95pt" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
A great deal <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 11.95pt" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
Not sure/ Decline <o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 11.95pt; mso-yfti-irow: 1"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 130.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=174 colSpan=2>
(%) <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
(%) <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
(%) <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
(%) <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 89.35pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=119 colSpan=2>
(%) <o:p></o:p>


</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 11.95pt; mso-yfti-irow: 2; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 115.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: dotted black 1.0pt" vAlign=top width=154><st1:country-region><st1:place>Indonesia</st1:place></st1:country-region> <o:p></o:p>
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 74.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: dotted black 1.0pt" vAlign=top width=99 colSpan=2>
16 <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 74.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: dotted black 1.0pt" vAlign=top width=99 colSpan=2>
48 <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 74.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: dotted black 1.0pt" vAlign=top width=99 colSpan=2>
26 <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 74.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: dotted black 1.0pt" vAlign=top width=99 colSpan=2>
6 <o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 74.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1pt dotted; HEIGHT: 11.95pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: dotted black 1.0pt" vAlign=top width=99>
4 <o:p></o:p>


</TD></TR><TR height=0><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=154></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=20></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=79></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=40></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=60></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=60></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=40></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=79></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=20></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=99></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>​
<o:p></o:p>
(I don't seem to be able to keep the headings above the data - JJ)
These figures are not atypical globally and are quite good for a Muslim country.
The rest of the poll data can be found here http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/CCGA+_ViewsUS_quaire.pdf
</IMG>
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re the numbers issue, the most probable explanation will be staff rotation. Anyone signed up to the military will have tours of duty, with returns home or transfers elsewhere to share learned experiences. The excess is most likely to be that the pool of staff is 34 with only 20 'on station' at any given time.

The paperwork involved (especially when relations are so strained) to keep cancelling and renewing a diplomatic passport each time a member of staff finished a 'tour of duty' and returns to the US for leave or is sent to one of the other NAMRU stations would be prohibitive.

One other point worth noting here is that some 120ish (I seem to recall) staff at NAMRU who are indonesians - both researchers and scientists as well as other office personnel.

Given the high number of US military personnel that have been victims of bomb and other attacks in recent years from terrorists (sadly mostly islamic, however misguided the terrorists may be) there is a high degree of US paranoia involved regarding the security of any base where military personel are based. This is designed to protect its staff - both US and thier local staff members. The world could ill afford to lose the expert researchers that are based there - Indonesian or US. When viewed in this context, US behaviour is quite understandible (in my opinion), and this current row must increase the risks of this station becoming a terrorist target. It is extremely regrettable that this issue exists - we all have much to gain and the world needs all the expertise it can raise in fighting the H5N1 threat - and any other viral or disease threat that may arise.

I for one hope a solution is found and the 'political temperature' decreases. We all have much to lose if it does not.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Code:
How much do you trust the USA to act responsibly in the world 

A:Not at all
B:Not very much
C:Somewhat
D:A great deal
E:Not sure/ Decline 

             A  B  C  D  E
--------------------------
China    :  20 39 30 05 07
France   :  30 42 25 03 01
India    :  27 25 22 17 09
Indonesia:  16 48 26 06 04 
Israel   :  09 07 25 56 03
Philipp. :  04 09 37 48 01
Russia   :  31 42 17 03 07
Thailand :  32 24 09 11 25
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Pembadanan Rationality in H5N1
RABU, 30 APRIL 2008 | 01:49 WIB

The Indonesian government attitude that refused to send the sample of bird flu (H5N1) before getting the assurance would the Indonesian rights that were formulated in material Transfer Agreement or MTA triggered the cynical response from the international community.
United States Health Minister stated, this Indonesian attitude endangered the safety of the world (Kompas, 16/4/2008).
Apparently clear that the utilisation of the sample of the bird flu virus the draught with the interests.
In this case, Indonesia felt Indonesia had the interests to get access and the distribution from each result of the utilisation of this bird flu virus.
On the other hand, the USA had the interests, good the health, economics, or defence and security, to be able to control this sample.
The tension above showed, the two sides defined and mengatualisasikan his position was based on their respective interests.

In order to prevents the occurrence of the conflict and the collision of the increasingly sharp interests, we necessary merevaluasi our reason postponed the sending of this sample.
In the context of the law, the Indonesian Government actually affirmed human rationality, or the living rights, that in his constitutional base.
This clear terekspresi in the country's commitment to protect the interests of the public and his fundamental rights, like the right of each resident to get the health (UUD 1945, the Article 28 (H.1).
Moreover, these provisions had keberterimaan that was wide, because through the interpretation of the law, the Article 28 UUD 1945 was actually parallel to the provisions that were sealed in Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) the Article 27 and International Convention ounce Economic Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) the Article 15 (1).

The two international legal documents obliged the country of the hands marker to give the fulfilment guarantee of the fundamental rights his resident, including the right to the health.
In this case, the fulfilment of the right to this health to have the very wide meaning.
He included the obligation of all the countries to honour, protected, and filled the fundamental rights the people.
So, the country had an obligation to take some sort actions in order to facilitates and guarantees his community in order to be able to access and fill his right to the health.
In detail, this action could take the form of the formulation or the implementation of the policy of the public, pengadministrasian the country, including the production of the agreement or the contract with the other side in order to protect the fundamental rights his resident.
Nevertheless, the country's action was not valid for some sort legal actions that canned or had the potential to keep away the community in filling his fundamental rights.
Departing from the argument above, in order to gets the support that was wide from the international community and prevents the sharpening of the conflict on the utilisation of the sample H5N1 that, the Indonesian Government must stress said that be based on the national and international constitution above, we were tied by the obligation to protect and spread aksesabilitas the community on the health.

Therefore, for the sake of the law, the government was also tied to invest in the obligation that was same to honour and help us in bringing about this fundamental obligation.
As his consequences, the government could oblige all the sides in a fair manner to give the contribution for the rescue sustainabilitas the life together.
For example, all the samples that were sent by the government must be open as well as could be accessed by all the sides for the interests of science and technology research and development for the aim of humanity.
Moreover, all the sides (especially WHO and MNC the pharmacy) had an obligation to help Indonesia and affected countries the impact of bird flu to transfer his technology so as Indonesia could develop and produce this vaccine autonomously in order to protect all of his people from the threat pandemik bird flu.
This commitment must be controlled and carried out by all the countries, especially WHO, and when must be formed by the international moratorium that carried out the supervision of the utilisation of this sample was based on the human reason (humanistic rationalisation).

Our failure interpreted and expressed the spirit and the human substance in UUD 1945 that was parallel to UDHR and this ICESCR will only make us be trapped in the X language the demanding and pengaktualisasian the X right that was very serious caused the collision or the conflict that threatened sustainabilitas the life together.
This destruction threat could be prevented if in negotiating the interests of the nation, we used the X argument pengembanan the collective X obligation to rescue and protect the fundamental rights of all the residents.
This argument will be more effective in integrating all the interests, at the same time forcing all the sides to give the contribution that was positive in the utilisation of the sample H5N1 and derivat-derivat him on the occasion of rescued sustainabilitas the life together.

Hayyan ul Haq Staf Pengajar FH-UNRAM

http://indoalert.wordpress.com/author/indonesiaga/page/2/
http://www.kompas.com/index.php/read/xml/2008/04/30/01494967/pembadanan.rasionalitas.dalam.h5n1
http://indoalert.wordpress.com/author/indonesiaga/page/2/
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

>The Indonesian government attitude that refused to send the
>sample of bird flu (H5N1) before getting the assurance would the
>Indonesian rights

not by international law. In fact the practice of the last 50 years
was different.

>that were formulated in material Transfer Agreement
>or MTA triggered the cynical response from the international community.

link to that "cynical" response ?

>United States Health Minister stated, this Indonesian attitude
>endangered the safety of the world (Kompas, 16/4/2008).
>Apparently
>clear that the utilisation of the sample of the bird flu virus
>the draught with the interests.
>In this case, Indonesia felt
>Indonesia had the interests to get access and the distribution
>from each result of the utilisation of this bird flu virus.

this would be done by the lab. to be given the order.
Indonesia would get the sequences first and then hopefully share
it with WHO. Now, once this is public, it is almost impossible to
control who else and in which countries might use that strain
for experiments,research,vaccine or just sequence-analysis.

>On
>the other hand, the USA had the interests, good the health, economics,
> or defence and security, to be able to control this sample.

I never heard this, that USA would have "control" of a sample
once it was public. As I understand, the samples can be divided.
So, if USA gets a sample then there still are other samples.

>The tension above showed, the two sides defined and mengatualisasikan
>his position was based on their respective interests.
>
>In order
>to prevents the occurrence of the conflict and the collision of
>the increasingly sharp interests, we necessary merevaluasi our
>reason postponed the sending of this sample.

I interpret it that they don't want to make Indo sequences public,
because they can't keep a sort of "copyright" on them

>In the context of the law,
>the Indonesian Government actually affirmed human rationality,
> or the living rights, that in his constitutional base.
>This
>clear terekspresi in the country's commitment to protect the interests
>of the public and his fundamental rights, like the right of each
>resident to get the health (UUD 1945, the Article 28 (H.1).

Indonesian law, Indonesian constitution ?
making sequences public violates the right of Indo-residents
to get the health ?

>Moreover,
> these provisions had keberterimaan that was wide, because through
>the interpretation of the law, the Article 28 UUD 1945 was actually
>parallel to the provisions that were sealed in Universal Declaration
>of Human Rights (UDHR) the Article 27 and International Convention
>ounce Economic Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) the Article
>15 (1).

I don't know these. But does the author claim, these right had been
violated the last 50 years ?

>The two international legal documents obliged the country
>of the hands marker to give the fulfilment guarantee of the fundamental
>rights his resident, including the right to the health.

which noone wants to threaten, as I understand.

>In this
>case, the fulfilment of the right to this health to have the very
>wide meaning.
>He included the obligation of all the countries
>to honour, protected, and filled the fundamental rights the people.

I think Indonesia should better not insist on this.
Just my opinion.

>So, the country had an obligation to take some sort actions
>in order to facilitates and guarantees his community in order
>to be able to access and fill his right to the health.

which law obligates this "action" ? Who did threaten
this right to the health ?

>In detail,
> this action could take the form of the formulation or the implementation
>of the policy of the public, pengadministrasian the country, including
>the production of the agreement or the contract with the other
>side in order to protect the fundamental rights his resident.

I can't follow this. Using Indo-sequences for research or vaccine
does violate the right on health ? And requiring some
(not specified) sort of "contract" would reinstall those rights ?

>Nevertheless, the country's action was not valid for some sort
>legal actions that canned or had the potential to keep away the
>community in filling his fundamental rights.
>Departing from the
>argument above, in order to gets the support that was wide from
>the international community and prevents the sharpening of the
>conflict on the utilisation of the sample H5N1 that, the Indonesian
>Government must stress said that be based on the national and
>international constitution above, we were tied by the obligation
>to protect and spread aksesabilitas the community on the health.
>
>
>Therefore, for the sake of the law, the government was also
>tied to invest in the obligation that was same to honour and help
>us in bringing about this fundamental obligation.

which obligation=honour ?

>As his consequences,
> the government could oblige all the sides in a fair manner to
>give the contribution for the rescue sustainabilitas the life
>together.
>For example, all the samples that were sent by the
>government must be open as well as could be accessed by all the
>sides for the interests of science and technology research and
>development for the aim of humanity.

good ! I would appreciate this. Although I'm not sure, I would
"require" it. ut noone stops Indo from making things public
AFAIK. Well, except maybe Baxter - but that was Indonesias will
and agreement.

>Moreover, all the sides
>(especially WHO and MNC the pharmacy) had an obligation to help
>Indonesia and affected countries the impact of bird flu to transfer
>his technology so as Indonesia could develop and produce this
>vaccine autonomously in order to protect all of his people from
>the threat pandemik bird flu.

well, an ethical "obligation" to do so as far as they are able to.
But the same holds for each other country.
Indonesia however should receive additional help in fighting
the current H5N1 and preventing its spread and development
into a pandemic (which would threaten all countries)

>This commitment must be controlled
>and carried out by all the countries, especially WHO, and when
>must be formed by the international moratorium that carried out
>the supervision of the utilisation of this sample was based on
>the human reason (humanistic rationalisation).
>
>Our failure
>interpreted and expressed the spirit and the human substance in
>UUD 1945 that was parallel to UDHR and this ICESCR will only make
>us be trapped in the X language the demanding and pengaktualisasian
>the X right that was very serious caused the collision or the
>conflict that threatened sustainabilitas the life together.
>This
>destruction threat could be prevented if in negotiating the interests
>of the nation, we used the X argument pengembanan the collective
>X obligation to rescue and protect the fundamental rights of all
>the residents.

?

>This argument will be more effective in integrating
>all the interests, at the same time forcing all the sides to give
>the contribution that was positive in the utilisation of the sample
>H5N1 and derivat-derivat him on the occasion of rescued sustainabilitas
>the life together.
>
>Hayyan ul Haq Staf Pengajar FH-UNRAM

it is clear that other countries like China,Russia,Vietnam etc.
might require the same ownership on "their" viruses which may
also go pandemic and threaten the health of Indonesian people
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I have to agree with gsgs that unsubstantiated allegations of spying are not helpful to the Indonesian case (the same for bio weapons). The term spying is inflammatory and can cover almost anything. If you mean might staff be asked questions about Indonesian attitudes, technological capabilities etc. as part of a HUMINT debriefing then quite possibly (but the same applies to businessmen and to most countries not just the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region>). If you mean primary function spy secondary function a bit of sequencing then why use NAMRU staff they are obviously military, have poor access to anything very useful and it generally makes no sense. As to the numbers discrepancy again I do not know but the logical assumption is 34 passports were issued but only 20 are still in country. Unless there is more evidence than a book keeping discrepancy it is a much bigger leap to assume they have all taken their diplomatic passports and gone undercover.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Sadly this kind of Indonesian domestic press - along with the low level of trust in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region> generally [1] - has probably made NAMRU's position untenable. While I doubt the average Indonesian had ever heard of NAMRU-2 for most of its existence; it appears they have now and what was a minor diplomatic problem is now a major public relations problem for both governments.<o:p></o:p>


[1] Indonesia happened to have been one of the countries included in sampling in last years PIPA 'Views of the United States'

(I don't seem to be able to keep the headings above the data - JJ)
These figures are not atypical globally and are quite good for a Muslim country.
The rest of the poll data can be found here http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/CCGA+_ViewsUS_quaire.pdf
</IMG>

Just my opinion.
Indeed the controversy of NAMRU-2 has turned so ugly in my country. Some analyst would say that this has everything to do with the next election. This is much about political climate in Indonesia. But it also show that Indonesian leaders are so divided about NAMRU-2. Something that surprised me more is that the copy of secret officials letters between ministers have become public in the last few days and can be accessed by everyone. It looks like those who oppose the presence of NAMRU-2 here 'went all out', in their effort. And those who support the presence of NAMRU (including the president and its spokesman) cannot do much except saying things like "stop the speculation".
Unfortunately the inflammatory terms like 'spying', 'spy nest', 'intelligence agent' etc become so frequent here these days, and I am sorry to bring it here too.
As for the discrepancy of the number of personnel, this was mentioned in the letter of Foreign Minister Hasan Wirayuda in 2005. He also mentioned other things. I think the ministry of foreign affair will have the data if some of them have left the country. His wording is : "Kami juga mencatat bahwa terdaftar sebanyak 34 staf NAMRU-2 dengan Status Administrasi dan Teknik pemegang paspor diplomatik, sedangkan menurut keterangan di homepage NAMRU-2 disebutkan bahwa jumlah staf warga negara AS sebanyak 21 orang."
http://www.myrmnews.com/indexframe.php?url=situsberita/index.php?pilih=lihat_edisi_website&id=56521

What you said as 'minor diplomatic problem' maybe not seen as such by some of our leaders who think it as a threat to our national security and sovereignty. At least three foreign ministers and two minister of defense have voiced their aspirations about NAMRU-2, as did the circle of Indonesian intelligence body.
As I said, those who oppose the presence of NAMRU-2 went all out these days, whoever they are, and I dont think they will stop before their goal is reached.
Even our Health Minister seems has change her stance. No matter what you think of her, she was among a handful Indonesian officials who speaks the positive side of the lab, and she used to say about continuing the cooperation provided there's an agreement/MoU for its operation. The president's spokesman said that it was her who asked the cooperation to be continued. But since 25/4 she changed her stance. "I think of it now. Why don't we just close it? Other ministers also disagree." So perhaps, those who oppose the presence of NAMRU-2 will win.

I agree with you about the lack of trust. I am sorry to say this, but this is indeed true.
Well my point to bring this to this forum is to show that this is not as simple as what Mr Leavitt said, about NAMRU-2 in Indonesia and his linking it to Ms. Supari's struggle in viral sharing sample. But it seems it has gone too far, I am sorry.
 
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Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

time to make some however small concessions from both sides
so to keep the discussion going ....

Indonesia could still close it later, no reason to hurry too much
(after 10 years).

Except, of course this is so important for the election
campaign, which I don't know much about.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Given the high number of US military personnel that have been victims of bomb and other attacks in recent years from terrorists (sadly mostly islamic, however misguided the terrorists may be) there is a high degree of US paranoia involved regarding the security of any base where military personel are based. This is designed to protect its staff - both US and thier local staff members. The world could ill afford to lose the expert researchers that are based there - Indonesian or US. When viewed in this context, US behaviour is quite understandible (in my opinion), and this current row must increase the risks of this station becoming a terrorist target. It is extremely regrettable that this issue exists - we all have much to gain and the world needs all the expertise it can raise in fighting the H5N1 threat - and any other viral or disease threat that may arise.

I for one hope a solution is found and the 'political temperature' decreases. We all have much to lose if it does not.

Good observation, but there's one thing.
The request of diplomatic immunity was not something new. There were three negotiation in 2000 and 2001, and according to Indonesian foreign minister the failure to reach agreement was because the USA insisted on getting diplomatic immunity for all American staff.
http://detiknews.com/index.php/deti...4/tgl/26/time/074241/idnews/929778/idkanal/10
Thats before the US personnels become target of terrorist etc.

Its obvious that those who oppose it went all out in their effort, so those who support its presence have to work harder and smarter to find a solution.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I want to thank everyone for a very informative and polite discussion.

Unfortunately the time may have passed for a resolution before the presidential election in Indonesia. The leaders are under pressure not to "bow" to any foreign power. Any compromise with the U.S. may now be seen this way. This is understandable. What are the chances that the U.S. will capitulate on every issue? Not high.

If the rumours of spying, or worse, are widely believed by the Indonesian people then the safety of the Americans working there is now in jeopardy.

I think that at this point the Namru2 laboratory should be moved. This is a sad reality. The workers must be protected. A climate now exists that is threatening to them.

Dr. Supari raised some very important and pertinent points about how health resources, particularly drugs, are distributed world wide. Unfortunately these issues have become lost in the rhetoric surrounding the Namru2 laboratory.


Let's remove the Namru2 controversy from the table and work together on the threat that faces us today:

What diseases are currently circulating in Indonesia that the international community help with?

How can we help?

How bad is the situation? In animals? Humans?

Where?

What is needed?

Which international organizations/countries are welcome?

When will disease samples be available for analysis by international experts?



We need to raise the level of cooperation between peoples to a level that may have never been seen before. We need to cast aside our nationalistic feelings and work for the human race.

Can we do it? Can we afford not to?


"There is the sky, which is all men's together."
Euripides
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Just to be clear about my 'minor diplomatic problem'

It is not minor to us here, as this site follows H5N1 very closely, but on the grand scale of diplomatic relations whether or not to renew the MoU for a small research lab is not normally the stuff of diplomatic nightmares. If the whole affair had been conducted in private (which is normal) and - even if no agreement could be reached - the US could have just announced 'due to the seriousness with which we take the whole danger of a Pandemic we are moving NAMRU-2 to Guam and expanding it to 100 personal' or some such diplomatic fudge. It is because normally private negotiation are being conducted through the press that senior figures in both governments are commenting, and being quoted, leaving us with this ugly mess and little likelihood of an amicable solution.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

. . . It is because normally private negotiation are being conducted through the press that senior figures in both governments are commenting, and being quoted, leaving us with this ugly mess and little likelihood of an amicable solution.

This has now become the crux of the problem. How can this issue be resolved so that politicians in both Indonesia and the USA can save face?

Florida1's post above (#60) raises the critical issues for those of us in this forum. Research labs and organizations in Southeast Asia, including NAMRU-2, and its potential successors, are critical for watching the next pandemic unfold or following newly developing tropical diseases. Time is running out on influenza research and studies of infectious diseases in this part of the world. Politics should not be allowed inside these research facilities and these research facilities should not be used as political footballs.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

What we all have to remember is that there are many areas and arenas of diplomatic tension and ongoing discussion, from world trade agreement negotiations to goodness knows what else - spanning decades. There is a long history here.

It is just possible that the whole issue has been caught up in a bigger set of negotiations and brinkmanship, and the whole issue has then gathered a life of its own.

As a result, I agree with Florida 1 - especially if it has become an election issue. There are enough disease hot spots in the region that I am sure that many other countries would welcome the expertise and facilities that NAMRU2can bring them. Perhaps their facilities would be better used elsewhere, where at least they are free to do thier research without getting bogged down in politics.

Footnote: Perhaps ties can get strengthened by helping train Indonesian research groups to carry out thier own work, along similar lines. Given the sharing issues, it will be very difficult for such assistance to be given on indonesian soil, as experts would not have access to samples. On this basis the only way forward would be to work with Indonesian experts by inviting them to other countries or labs overseas where these matters were not an issue. They could then transfer the expertise back to their home laboratories, and hopefully agree to share their findings in return.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I disagree.Don't give up now ! The differences are not so big IMO and can be resolved.(IMO)
USA and Indo shouldn't insist on their positions but rather move a bit to find an agreement
for the benefit of both sides.
The current election rhetoric doesn't really hurt and may soon be forgotten when
other subjects become important, other arguments dominant.
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Juwono: Namru-2 did not carry out the Operation Intelijen
on Sunday, May 11 2008 | 16:26 WIB

The Interaktif TIME, Jakarta: Defence Minister Juwono Sudarsono said Naval Medical Research Unit-2 (Namru 2) not the United States intelligence operation in Indonesia.
The reason is, Namru-2 only United States executive bodies of the unit of the naval research.
"Namru-2 not the spy," said Juwono in the gap of the marriage reception of People's Consultative Assembly Chairman Hidayat Nur Wahid in Sasono Langen Budoyo Taman Mini Indonesia Indah, Ahad (11/5).

For the last month, the existence of the laboratory belonging to the American Navy that had operated since 1970 was discussed by many sides.
Apart from his benefit principle was questioned, the laboratory was accused of carrying out the activity of intelligence.
To reduce the controversy, Juwono suggested that the doctor was from the Indonesian Navy involved in the research Namru-2.
"From the Navy must be enclosed supervised, researched, and received the benefit from the research," he said.
Chief of Staff Angkatan Laut Laksamana Sumardjono some time before stated his readiness to be involved in the project Namru-2.
The matter of the extension of the co-operation Namru-2 that was finished since 2000, according to Juwono, Departemen of the Defence, the Foreign Affairs Department, and the Department of the Health was still evaluating him.
KURNIASIH Budi
http://www.tempointeraktif.com/hg/nasional/2008/05/11/brk,20080511-122851,id.html
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Indonesian State Pharmaceutical Company to Produce Bird Flu Vaccine By 2011
Posted on: Monday, 12 May 2008, 12:00 CDT

Text of report in English by Indonesian government-owned news agency Antara website
[Unattributed Article: "Bio Farma produces birdflu vaccines in 2011"]

State pharmaceutical company PT Bio Farma is set to produce bird flu (avian influenza) vaccines for humans starting in 2011 with an initial production of 20 million doses.

"In the initial stage, seasonal bird flu vaccines will be produced starting next year, and preparations will be made for bird flu vaccine production for humans in anticipation of a bird flu pandemic," Planning and Development Director of PT Bio Farma Iskandar said on the sidelines of the granting of scholarships for 176 students in Bandung on Sunday [11 May 08].

Iskandar disclosed that bird flu vaccine production for humans will need an investment of IDR 400 billion to cover the [costs of] technology, infrastructure and human resources.
"It is a big investment indeed, but it must be done," he said.

For the time being, the 20 million doses will be for domestic consumption, which [will not be sufficient for] the total population in Indonesia.

Right now PT Bio Farma is only producing H2N2 vaccines for fowls.

"If necessary, seasonal bird flu vaccines could be transformed [using the] bird flu virus found in Indonesia. These types of bird flu vaccines are meant for haj pilgrims," he said.

He said that for the time being PT Bio Farma is still importing the basic materials for the production of seasonal bird flu vaccines from Japan.

Seasonal vaccines enjoy a vast market, not only in Indonesia, but overseas as well.

PT Bio Farma is also producing meningitis vaccines for the prevention of pneumonia, he added.

Originally published by Antara news agency, Jakarta, in English, 11 May 08.
(c) 2008 BBC Monitoring Asia Pacific. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights Reserved.

Source: BBC Monitoring Asia Pacific
-
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health...tical_company_to_produce_bird_flu_vaccine_by/
------
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

RI evaluating US proposal to extend period of NAMRU-2 operations

Tangerang, Banten, (ANTARA News) -

The Indonesian government is evaluating a US proposal to extend an agreement on cooperation between its NAMRU 2 (Naval Medical Research Unit No.2) and Indonesia, a cabinet minister said.

"The US government has sent us a proposal to extend the period of their NAMRU-2 operations in Indonesia. The proposal id being evaluated thoroughly," Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari said on her arrival at Soekarno-Hatta airport, Saturday, after attending the 61st World Health Assembly meeting in Geneva.

NAMRU-2 began operating in Indonesia in 1970, and the Health Ministry provided a building at Jalan Percetakan Negara, Central Jakarta, to house its office.

On December 31, 2005, the cooperation with NAMRU-2 expired and by January 1, 2006 its project in Indonesia was stopped.

NAMRU-2 focused its research activities on viral diseases such as malaria, dengue fever, intestinal infection that cause diarrhea, and bird flu.

The decision to stop the cooperation was supported by the Foreign Ministry, Defence Ministry, Law and Human Rights Ministry, Health Ministry, Home Affairs Ministry, and other related institutions.

Supari said she could not decide whether or not the cooperation would be extended as a decision on it must be taken after coordination with other ministries.

Previously, two non-governmental organizations, namely Medical Emergency Rescue Committee (MER-C) and An Nashr Institute had called on the government not to extend the cooperation with NAMRU-2.

They urged the government to return the US Navy officials in the project to their home country as NAMRU`s 30-year existence in Indonesia had been of little benefit to the people.

The NGOs claimed the cooperation with NAMRU-2 had actually harmed Indonesia`s interest as all NAMRU staff enjoyed diplomatic immunity, were exempted from taxes and provided with housing.

Om a separate occasion recently, the minister had said the cooperation with NAMRU-2 had not been of significant benefit to health programs in Indonesia.

"A decision to continue or not to continue the cooperation is not in my hands. But I can say that NAMRU is useless for the development of the health sector in Indonesia," she said.(*)
-
http://www.antara.co.id/en/arc/2008...posal-to-extend-period-of-namru-2-operations/
------
 
Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

"Text of report in English by Indonesian government-owned news agency Antara website
[Unattributed Article: "Bio Farma produces birdflu vaccines in 2011"]

State pharmaceutical company PT Bio Farma is set to produce bird flu (avian influenza) vaccines for humans starting in 2011 with an initial production of 20 million doses."


we have 3 prepping years more ...
 
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