Masks thinking outside the box

[tropical]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

Gullwing:
"... There are some drawbacks. One being that you are tethered to your air supply and the hose gets in the way. Second being that not everyone has an unlimited supply of Oxygen. I usually have a tank of oxygen in the garage because I do a lot of welding however I could just as easily use some of the compressed air from my compressor but I kind of need that for spraying the paint. ..."

Gullwing stated it well:
put your deep-diving equipment on, and restore the oxigen from your compresor , but I doubt we can do our daily activities with that, it will be like working in a high sec. lab.

Beside, don't forget that you can be infected by other means than from the air, surfaces, ..., maybe to put on an NASA suite during the first 4 months of pandemic ...<!-- / message -->

 

[Sally Furniss]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

If you want to breath the air from an air compressor you need to use a 'dive rated air compressor' due to contamination problems in ordinary compressors.

The air for the compressor must also be well away from any exhaust fumes or other dangers. Carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide contamination, oil and particulate matter are common contaminants.

I suggest you research this very carefully before trying this at home

Also for 'bird flu' purposes remember to filter the air going in to the air compressor first.



edit The air intake shall be located at least 3 m from any door or openable window, 16 m from any exhaust and a minimum of 3 m above the ground”. When dealing with carbon monoxide problems, we typically trace the issue back to either poor original intake locations or building design changes after the fact.
http://www.cantest.com/cms/page3230.cfm

 

[gsgs]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

I thought, that you needn't take the compressor.
Just attach (staple?) a N95 to the end of the tube.

The masks are more comfortable meanwhile, I looked in a
forum for apnea-people and they were well content.
I also found a study, that the nasal masks were more
comfortable than the face masks.
I never had heard about CPAP,sleep-apnea before.
But these people have some experience with longterm
masking. I don't know how it works at day.

The masks are rather expensive IMO, it's just a little
plastic...
If they were produced in masses for a pandemic presumably they will
become cheaper.

 

[tropical]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

Well said, Sally, gsgs.

IMO, in an very serious pandemic (x0%CFR), I don't think that we can escape contamination without be in an complete isolation vault position, with all the input filters, and the rest of it, without sick elements trapped into.

The above is an complete unbelievable thinking for our modern society.
Nor the standard war can force people for various months in such a bunker. For that kind of reasons, it's necessary to have vaccines, and medicines.

Working, and food/med. distribution questions will force the masses to crossinfect themself (those fancy Nxx masks can't work good enaugh).

The plans are elusive, and relied on workforce not equiped with adequate daily personal protection suites, masks, vehicles, not trained, etc.
Think at the mil. way of behaviour in an b. event to have a clue how life in such an event must be to maybe elude the contagion.

 

[gsgs]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

I could imagine a working society for some months
with full protective equipment for all workers.
After work they are disinfected and put of their protective gear.

Only essential workers, only those who are in contact with others.
Children stay at home or meet in small groups at special places.

It's bad for the economy, but it should work for some months in
rich countries like USA.

In poor countries like India many people just won't be able to
afford it, the equipment and complications/restrictions
for their daily work which they have to do to feed
their families.

 

[tropical]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

I could imagine a working society for some months
with full protective equipment for all workers.
After work they are disinfected and put of their protective gear.

Only essential workers, only those who are in contact with others.
Children stay at home or meet in small groups at special places.

It's bad for the economy, but it should work for some months in
rich countries like USA.

In poor countries like India many people just won't be able to
afford it, the equipment and complications/restrictions
for their daily work which they have to do to feed
their families.

Pardon me gsgs, but I think that's so much optimistic.

Looking at those "essential workers" formulation, it would be fast discovered that such an modern society are all interconnected, and that the necessary food storidge, without trading, can last for a few weeks only.
How will cost a full equipment for an 10% of "necessary" personel in a country of 200 milion citizens? 20 milion hazmat suites, vehicles?
Or maybe the necessary ones are only 1% - 2 milion storidges?
Our only hope is that it would not happen, or that it would be "a peace of cake".

In such depicted environment, the red quoted assertion is for the majority of citizens - "science fiction".

Not only they all will not have the necessary equipment, they don't know what to do, and why, because they are not trained.
They will wait that somebody deliver the food, staying in the skyscrapers, or trying to sip in some residential zones.
Only the ones with vaults will have some chances.

We can see in the posts that nor the health personel today have enaugh training, willing, or equipment, in an ordinary situation, to stop transmiting hospital infections, how we think that the lay mass will do it in a few weeks of prealarm? No way, IMO.

 

[Amish Country]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

Under no circumstnace use peach pits! They contain cyanide. Nothing like a litle cyanide gas to ruin your day.

FYI - Historical note
From examination of the filter the part of the chard pit that appears to have been used was the hard outer shell not the soft inner kernel containing the cyanide. The goal in WWI was to use this to help protect people from poisonous gas not inflict it on them.

 

[mixin]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

Just attach (staple?) a N95 to the end of the tube.

This is a good idea in theory but wouldn't work very well.
I have several different brands of N95 and most of them are fairly stiff and thick.
It would be difficult to form the mask around a tube even as big as 1" and get a tight fit. I doubt that even duct tape could make an air-tight seal between the mask and the tube.
I don't think staples would work.

 

[teederkee]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

The mask I mentioned was specifically designed for gas (oxygen or clean air supply). It uses the 3M 9210 mask, which is the most commonly fit N95 mask. Although it was designed to be placed on the patient to capture exhaled particles (i.e. prevent or at least greatly reduce the amount of environmental contamination), it could be used by staff who have been fit tested to that particular mask.

The article I quoted checked for leaks of 0.02 microns on inhalation and exhalation at 6 cm and 50 cm lateral to the mask. The results were impressive.

If the compressed air supply was clean of minute particles and more importantly oil, it would have a role in airway protction. For staff protection of respiratory borne infectious agents, the gas source would have to be checked.

T

 

[Amish Country]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

Wouldn't the hole from the staple compromise the integrity of the mask?

 

[gsgs]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

I used "zetmask" ,
http://i17.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/dc/e9/22_1.JPG
common staples for paper to attach it to a piece of garden-hose or syringe.
Put it in my pocket to breath through when people are coughing in my
room,bus,elevator,...
It is used for short periods, breathing through the mouth, but could probably
also be attached to the nose (with "nose-pillow" ?)
http://magictour.free.fr/breath1.jpg
I'm sure, this can be improved, but you get the idea.

the holes for the staples are tiny and the staple fills the hole.
And it generates pressure around the hole, so air usually
won't transpass on that area.


I just noticed this old thread about CPAP here:
http://www.fluwikie2.com/index.php?n=Forum.UsingCpapWithoutPowerPartII

 

[mixin]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

I read a comment about improvising and it mentioned nylon stockings; so I decided to sacrifice a pair in the name of science. I cut a leg lengthwise and cut the toe area out, so it made 1 long strip.

A square homemade mask can be placed in the middle of the nylon and the nylon can be used to secure the mask. I found that looping the stocking over the ears was helpful in keeping the mask in place.

The nylon really seemed to make a better seal due to its elasticity. This also worked with a N95 with a broken elastic (which I find happens often). The fit with the nylon is superior to the elastic bands by themselves. The nylon can be stretched over the nose and under the chin and tied tight with little discomfort... unless you get hair tied into the knot.

 

[Sunshine123]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

Janetn that is an excellent question. Here are the answers I have found;

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no06/05-1468.htm

Your idea about the trash bag is perfect for a crisis. That covers the gown piece.

The face masks will have to be collected inside the isolation and microwaved. Then reused. Haven't tried it myself but I suspect about 20 seconds. This is only for an emergency shortage scenario.

The most practical advise to make a mask was this: Think MULTIPLE layers of GOOD MUSLIN fabric....Or GOOD linen. But multiple layers (4-6)...Cut squares, sew as 4-5-6 layers, with tie strings to tie around your head...
Maybe you have a good volunteer system at work (little ol' ladies who are dynamite with a needle and thread).

For respirators the CPAP are cheap and easy. If there are masses of patients that are critical and need room on a respirator. It can't be done. The best a person can do is break out cpaps and triage. That idea is good as the supply.

Most people will have to be sent home and required to ride the illness out at home. Hospitals will have to put security in place first and foremost or they will be overrun.

Good luck to you.

 

[Sunshine123]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

PS.

Oh yeah and remember that saline nose drops works miracles.

 

[Amish Country]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

As to the garbage bag idea... Here is another "out of the box idea": paint suits? I am including link just to show what I'm talking about for informational purposes. This is NOT an endorsement of this supplier or this particular product. I have never used them or have any interest in this place it is just to clarify what I am talking about.

http://www.disposable-garments.com/painters_coveralls.html

These are relatively cheap, disposable and some gather at the neck, ankles and wrists. I would hope, being "paint suits" they would be somewhat water/fluid resistant. These may be tough enough to stand some reuse. What do our HCW think?

Granted unlike a garbage bag, this would be a prep item that would have to be purchased ahead of time. Some carefully applied, old fashion, duck tape may improve the seal to disposable gloves.

This idea is really going back. My mom would save her plastic bread bags. When I was a kid and would go out skiing (not to a resort but to a local hill with no tow where you had to either carry your skis up or herring bone or side step to get back to the top) she had us put the bread bags over our socks to help keep our feet dry.

 

[Sunshine123]

Re: Masks thinking outside the box

I like the double gloving idea. One pair stays on in the work area, and use handsaniter on the gloves and add a second pair between pts and glove changes. Something I do now when changing soiled dressings when I want to use dirty gloves first, and then change to clean ones.

This idea completes most of the basic needs during an emergency.