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Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

I think the data are quite clear. Previously healthy young adults are dying in 2009, even though there are antivirals and antibiotics. Swine H1N1 can kill very quickly and may be too advanced for anti-virals to be effective (even if there is no anti-viral resistance). The rapid test for influenza A is not very sensitive and false negatives are common. Similarly, MRSA has been associated with flu infections, so bacteria can kill, even after treatment with antibiotics (and many patients have died after being sent home with antibiotics).
These 2009 deaths are happening worldwide, including countries like the US, UK, Canada, and Australia in areas where infections have not reached a pandemic level, which would limit care and treatment.

Yes, these types of deaths are happening worldwide, but not yet with significant frequency.
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

So, why would the deaths in healthy adults be happening in certain instances and not others? Are there certain "triggers", are their multiple strains, etc.? What are the theories that would cause it to increase in frequency? Judging by the articles I have seen, it looks like the potential is there, but I do not have a background in science so I do not know if these are dumb questions.
 
Pandemic wave theory in doubt

Pandemic wave theory in doubt

Thursday 13 August 2009
Pandemic wave theory in doubt
Experts see weak evidence behind concerns over severe winter wave of influenza

The 2009 pandemic could recede without resurging with a sweeping wave of severe influenza, write David Morens and Jeffery Taubenberger this week in JAMA. Health authorities in Europe and elsewhere have warned that worse may yet to come as more countries get into flu season, but the authors find few signs of distinct ?waves? of illness in large-scale outbreaks over the past two centuries.

?With little consistent evidence of wavelike behaviour in the major influenza epidemics and pandemics of the past, there is a general tendency of pandemics to quickly assume annual seasonality in temperate zones,? say Morens and Taubenberger, of the US National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland.

It usually takes at least one recurrence before a new flu virus blends into more familiar patterns to circulate seasonally or annually, explain the authors in the commentary. This occurs as viruses change and more people build up immune defences against them. ?The pandemics of 1957 and 1968 generally exhibited no more than 1 (mostly seasonal) recurrence, typically affecting populations not involved in the first pandemic appearance, and quickly became seasonal epidemics.?

Even in the case of the ?Spanish Flu? of 1918?1919, when 20 million people are estimated to have died, there is no evidence to show which viruses were involved in spring-time outbreaks of mild influenza-like illness and a subsequent epidemic of more serious illness. The assumption that a more virulent virus appeared in the winter followed evidence of changes in mortality during the course of that pandemic, not changes in the virus, infectious-disease experts have suggested.

?The first documented wave of 1918, often confusingly referred to as the spring wave, was actually a summer surge of influenza fatalities concentrated in some but not all northern European countries between late June and August 1918,? explain Morens and Taubenberger.

The impression that a spring pandemic wave preceded a later more serious epidemic in 1918 has drawn comparisons with the current situation, because most countries have seen mainly mild cases of illness associated with the novel swine-origin A/H1N1 strain of influenza. This has fuelled speculation that the pandemic might pick up speed later in the year, and that a more virulent virus might evolve.

The authors suggest that fears of a resurgence bringing more serious illness could also be off the mark. Past pandemics have varied in severity as well as where and when they appeared, they point out, adding that evidence of unchanged or lessening severity over time is ?much greater? than the evidence of increased severity.

Experimental studies suggest that a flu virus could get weaker as it spreads through the population, says Heath Kelly, Head of the Epidemiology Unit at the Victorian Infectious Diseases Reference Laboratory and Associate Professor at the University of Melbourne, Australia. ?It would be reasonable to expect an undrifted [unchanged] virus to become less virulent, rather than more virulent, over time, having passed through many hosts.?

Kelly agrees that waves of illness may not be a significant feature of pandemics. In 1918, the ebb and flow of flu cases could have resulted from other factors, he explains, such as relaxed social-distancing measures, changes in age-specific attack rates, or a particular feature of the virus.

There are still many unknowns about the 2009 pandemic, notes Kelly. But the unanswered questions, including how many people are likely to die as flu season approaches in the northern hemisphere, are the same questions that vex health experts dealing with seasonal influenza, he says.

Although the ?global industry? dedicated to keeping track of, controlling, and preventing influenza is important and impressive, it has been built on ?surprisingly shaky foundations?, adds Kelly.

Morens and Taubenberger see hopeful signs in the new H1N1 virus?s modest ability to spread from person to person, its arrival during the summer, and the evidence of some pre-existing immunity in some vaccinated or older people. ?Pandemic history suggests that changes neither in transmissibility nor in pathogenicity are inevitable,? they write. ?It will be critical to assess the effect of large-scale pandemic outbreaks in the Southern Hemisphere in the current and coming (winter) months.?

Evidence from the ongoing pandemic in Australia, published this month in an article co-authored by Kelly, suggests that the 2009 pandemic strain predominated over seasonal strains over the course of 10 weeks, becoming responsible for 95% of all illness cases reported in the country. There was no evidence that people of any age were protected by having received seasonal flu vaccine.


http://www.eht-forum.org/news.html?fileId=news090813121221&from=home&id=0
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

I wish when writers compose these types of articles they would not refer to "experts" collectively, but rather take an idea (like waves) and present the latest thinking from several leading experts. They could write about the different viewpoints of YiGuan:Kawaoka:Taubenberger:Webster.

Then there's this:
The assumption that a more virulent virus appeared in the winter followed evidence of changes in mortality during the course of that pandemic, not changes in the virus, infectious-disease experts have suggested.
The author clearly missed one of Taubenberger's major points - since we only have ONE SAMPLE of complete 1918 virus, we have NO EVIDENCE to prove any particular assumptions about various waves, virulence patterns, etc.

The way that particular sentence is written, it erroneous implies there is evidence that the virus didn't change. :rolleyes:

As ARR_309 said: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

.
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

Furthermore, I fully believe we will see something like this come this fall with H1N1, at least in terms of cases.

Will it have the same virulence as 1918? I have no idea. However, it is important to remember, most of those that died in 1918 did so because of the secondary bacterial infection (at least that is what some research says).

How do we know that it was bacterial versus viral pneumonia?
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

we have the weekly/daily recorded deathrates from influenza from
various cities

how it was introduced, the ships,

clearly 2 waves in 1918 who can deny it
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

if it wa the same virus in both waves in 1918, then why
the two types of disease, of virulence in many different
parts of the world ?
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

Is it possible for someone to post the opposite view from experts so that we all can see the players in this debate? In other words, what experts are taking the position that will see another wave of much greater severity akin to the 1918 experience?

There are a few out of 60 polled who think a higher virulence is likely:
How likely is it that a more virulent strain will emerge? The majority of respondents did not rule it out: two thirds said they thought that higher virulence was "possible". Only a small proportion said it was "likely". Around 30 per cent of respondents believe there is a fifty-fifty chance or greater of increased virulence.

From: Swine flu: How experts are preparing their families
http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120956
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

hat tip Snowy Owl -

"The virus is still around and ready to explode," said William Schaffner, an influenza expert at the Vanderbilt University School of Medicine who advises federal health officials. "We're potentially looking at a very big mess."

I don't know of any expert in the field that would disagree that there is the potential for a big mess.

But is Dr. Schaffner taking a stand that this coming flu season is going to be really ugly? In other words, based on the virus that is circulating today, will it cause more serious illness than Seasonal Flu?
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

I don't know of any expert in the field that would disagree that there is the potential for a big mess.

But is Dr. Schaffner taking a stand that this coming flu season is going to be really ugly? In other words, based on the virus that is circulating today, will it cause more serious illness than Seasonal Flu?

Mamabird,

I tend to find that a virus that kills/incapacitates relatively young and healthy individuals a more serious illness than a virus that attacks the very old/young and those with weakened immune systems.

Doesn't the target age groups and cases we have seen today already qualify it as more serious than Seasonal Flu?
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

Mamabird,

I tend to find that a virus that kills/incapacitates relatively young and healthy individuals a more serious illness than a virus that attacks the very old/young and those with weakened immune systems.

Doesn't the target age groups and cases we have seen today already qualify it as more serious than Seasonal Flu?

Perhaps, because the loss of our young who have the whole world ahead of them with so much opportunity to improve upon the ground laid by their elders, is tragic.

But to that point, you can track pediatric mortality statistics in the US for example and find that as many as 100 children die in a normal flu season. To my knowledge, this Swine Flu virus could likely cause less pediatric mortality if it retains its current characteristics and continues its current trend.
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

I don't know of any expert in the field that would disagree that there is the potential for a big mess.

But is Dr. Schaffner taking a stand that this coming flu season is going to be really ugly? In other words, based on the virus that is circulating today, will it cause more serious illness than Seasonal Flu?


I have sent him an email.
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

Also, I believe there is some information about hemorrhages in the lungs of some victims of swine flu 2009 that is reminiscent of the 1918 experience.
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

I have sent him an email.

Thanks F1. It will be interesting to see if you get a timely response.

But, you know, to Jeremy's point, we could very well have a mess even if the virus remains relatively mild in terms of its overall virulence and symptoms. The average age of pediatric deaths tends to be pre-school age, and if we do not protect the very young and the virus simply spreads rapidly through the infant population, the law of averages would suggest many more deaths than the normal flu season.

Clinics and hospitals have been over-run in Southern Hemisphere countries by both the sick and the worried well. I hope in the Northern Hemisphere this season we will reserve the health care for those that are trully in need. It might make a large difference in final outcome.
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

Perhaps, because the loss of our young who have the whole world ahead of them with so much opportunity to improve upon the ground laid by their elders, is tragic.

But to that point, you can track pediatric mortality statistics in the US for example and find that as many as 100 children die in a normal flu season. To my knowledge, this Swine Flu virus could likely cause less pediatric mortality if it retains its current characteristics and continues its current trend.

I thought they were predicting an outbreak similar to 1957, where 70,000 people perished? No?
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

I thought they were predicting an outbreak similar to 1957, where 70,000 people perished? No?

CG, I'm not certain who "they" is, but to get to 70K deaths, the current Swine Flu virus likely needs to become much more virulent. And please remember that 70K was the deaths in 1957 when the population of the US was only 172 million. You would have to double the death figure to almost 140K based on today's population to reach a 1957-like outcome.
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

Thanks F1. It will be interesting to see if you get a timely response.

But, you know, to Jeremy's point, we could very well have a mess even if the virus remains relatively mild in terms of its overall virulence and symptoms. The average age of pediatric deaths tends to be pre-school age, and if we do not protect the very young and the virus simply spreads rapidly through the infant population, the law of averages would suggest many more deaths than the normal flu season.

Clinics and hospitals have been over-run in Southern Hemisphere countries by both the sick and the worried well. I hope in the Northern Hemisphere this season we will reserve the health care for those that are trully in need. It might make a large difference in final outcome.


He has agreed to a FluTrackers radio interview on Monday August 17th for an hour.

Thanks team for such great work!
 
Re: Expert warns of misunderstanding behind 1918 flu

He has agreed to a FluTrackers radio interview on Monday August 17th for an hour.

Thanks team for such great work!

Well, that's what I would categorize as one heck of a timely response. Fantastic news. We will be waiting with baited breath.

A real feather in the FT cap to get such an authority to work with the Team.
 
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