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Discussion - Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

........soldiers trained to operate against an "enemy" ...........

A lot of the US soldiers in Iraq helped the Iraqi people. My ex-SIL served there and said he really liked the people and enjoyed doing what they could to help them.

Regarding the military assistance in a pandemic: If they could be of help with medical personnel, field hospitals, etc. that would be great. Also, if the basic utilities start to fail because too many repairmen are ill, I think we'd all welcome the assistance of the military to keep basic infrastructure up and running.

IF the state police and national guard needed extra man-power to maintain order, I see nothing wrong with the military adding their resources only as long as needed.

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Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Although the discussions related to the potential effectiveness of the U.S. military are important to considier and although I have the same concerns about armed gangs and civil unrest as others, my concerns go more to the fundamental debate related to the separation of a State's jurisdication over civil law enforcement versus the military's jurisdiction over armed conflict with enemy combatants. Even the fact that the national guard and law enforcement are better trained for law enforcement and the military is better trained for is not really relevent to my fundamental concerns. That fact reinforces the concerns. Finally, I have no doubt that most military personnel would treat their fellow citizens as well or better than Iraqi citizens. But, frankly that still doesn't matter.

My concern is that since the reconstruction after the civil war we have not had federal combat troops with formal jurisdiction over U.S. soil. After that period in history, a bright line was established between civil law enforcement and military action. The Posse Comitatus Act was passed to establish this bright line. An earlier thread discussed the Act and a very good article was posted that explained how the Act has effectively been eroded over time from a legal standpoint. Establishment of Northcom set the stage for the final blow to the Act. A large-scale crisis justifying the use of the military would probably kill any residual separation the Act established.

If we have a crisis, could the military be of assistance to maintain civil order - yes. Would many people accept or even welcome their assistance - yes. Would it be good for our nation's future? IMHO - no.

For me, it comes down to how much freedom are we willing to give up for more security? On a personal level, many people would give up their freedom to save their own life or that of their family members. Many of those same people would be willing to give their life or sacrifice in other ways to defend that freedom under other circumstances.

As discussed above, the military could provided needed help in many ways that doesn't involve the use of armed troops enforcing state and local laws. This assistance would free the national guard and law enforcement to address civil unrest.

/rant

But, I see this as a bigger question than just this particular crisis, as bad as it might be. I would not want to endure hardship due to civil unrest, but I still would rather suffer more through that circumstance than lose our unique system of government that allows for the autonomy of each State while maintaining a strong federal government for the good of each State. Many nations in history have dramatically changed their system of government on the heels of a crisis. I love our system of government as it was set up and as it matured after a catastrophic, bloody Civil War. I personally don't want to see it continue to change into something that no longer resembles that system.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

A lot of the US soldiers in Iraq helped the Iraqi people. My ex-SIL served there and said he really liked the people and enjoyed doing what they could to help them.

What I said was not intended in any way to disparage our soldiers, even those who inadvertently fired on civilians. If a car approached a checkpoint and didn't stop, they had no way to know whether it was filled with desperate men trying to ram an explosive-filled vehicle into an American unit, or filled with desperate women and children trying to find a doctor. All they knew was that if a car didn't stop, they were supposed to fire on it. My hearts go out to the young men and women who came back from Iraq after incidents like this with PTSD, nightmares, and all too often, attempts at suicide.

My point was that this scenario could very well be re-enacted in the US for exactly the same reasons.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

However, I came across this linked Canadian study months ago that made me re-think the whole "protecting us" issue. It's about how recruits deal with conflict between innocent civilians and their superior officers. When I found this study, there was a lot of conversation on other forums on this same topic. This statement is at the very beginning: "Implications of this study for training efforts and for future research are discussed."

Very very interesting. I read through the whole thing, and noticed one thing in particular--the emphasis placed throughout the exercise on how well-rounded the trainees' behavior was. How they interacted with the MP's, whether or not they had good situational awareness, whether they attempted to find out what was actually going on or just displayed a kneejerk reaction to the MP's. If this is typical of US troop training, I'd be a lot less concerned, and I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know whether it is or not. But I suspect, from the first-hand accounts I've had (my nephew is in Afghanistan) that ordinary soldiers don't get that kind of training.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If the only tool you have is a gun, every obstacle looks like a threat.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

During the current pan we already are IN. Initially it would be a support role as it has been for the first wave we are ALREADY IN and thru wave 2 that is coming this fall.

Other following waves 3 and 4 who really knows?

What would concern me is after level six on the WHO Pandemic scale there is a "Recovery Phase"

Depending how bad the waves are will determine the governments involvement in the "Recovery Phase" which may involve reestablishment of basic structures and resetting the "system". I'm sure we will all be asked to give up something or contribute something to the "Recovery".

They military just doesn't have the manpower and the National Guard is already heavily committed. The impact all at once most every where in the US is too big for anyone singular organization to be effective except to maintain some type of presence psychologically as a last resort.

The military still works for civilians and most certainly always will. It will be Feds, states and counties all the way down trying to coordinate and work together locally. They would probably call up citizen volunteers and retirees to work locally for the most part just like they are doing now with the medical core.


We will be our own, as we have always been told by Olsterholm and others, working in local communities, towns and on up.

A posse or two might have to be rounded up by the military for some rabble rousers but expect Jhon Wayne to prevail and everybody behave.

Then again i guess the CFR will tell the tale. High CFR and collapse of JIT and all bets are off.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Very very interesting. I read through the whole thing, and noticed one thing in particular--the emphasis placed throughout the exercise on how well-rounded the trainees' behavior was. How they interacted with the MP's, whether or not they had good situational awareness, whether they attempted to find out what was actually going on or just displayed a kneejerk reaction to the MP's. If this is typical of US troop training, I'd be a lot less concerned,
I have just the opposite reaction than you; if our troops are trained like that, then I'll be very concerned. (Of course, I'm wearing my tinfoil hat) but if we were to be forced into quarantine, the last thing I would want is a bunch of military who has been trained to respond to commands and ignore the moral decision.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

I have just the opposite reaction than you; if our troops are trained like that, then I'll be very concerned. (Of course, I'm wearing my tinfoil hat) but if we were to be forced into quarantine, the last thing I would want is a bunch of military who has been trained to respond to commands and ignore the moral decision.

It appeared to me that just the opposite was the desired outcome in this exercise. For example, the trainees who made an effort to find out what the MP's were doing, why the prisoners were described as terrorists, whether or not they had actually been judged and found guilty, etc., were clearly seen as more positive than the ones who provoked the MP's or threw their weight around. Moreover, there were two scenarios in which the civilians "died," and they both came about when the trainees failed to intervene in what would appear to have been proper military authority (the MP's are "military police," after all). The only scenario in which the prisoners survived was the one where the trainees ignored military authority and followed the MP's and their prisoners.
 
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Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Yes, for "this" study, that appears to be the desired outcome.

Otoh, the study shows exactly what civilian behavior trips that moralness in the trainees and gives good insight on how to train the military to avoid/ignore moral decisions if necessary.

Heheh, yeah, not really funny, but I noticed that too. The pretty face at close range . . . Information can always be used for good or ill.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

These emergency bills always make me a little nervous; I wonder if the House exempted themselves from it :D

It sounds like this gives the health authority the right to take anything they want from whomever they want and use it any way they deem necessary.

I wonder who gets to decide "if such action is reasonable and necessary for emergency response." ?

Welcome to the forum, btw.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Thank you, I wasn't sure if there was a place to say hi so I figured I would just jump on in since I have lurked here for a while, lol. I wonder who would ultimately get to decide what would happen regarding quarantines, confiscations, etc. I just cannot imagine that happening until I saw it in black and white with my own eyes. Seems almost pointless to hoard up on anything because in an emergency, they have the authorization to take it away from you and disperse it to whomever they want. Scary.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Welcome GennieF.

A couple of years ago, I tried to encourage people to prepare for the possibility. I no longer do that.
If and when it gets bad, I will keep a low profile and not give the impression that we have ample supplies.

If I leave gifts for neighbors, I'll do it anonymously and pretend to have received one myself.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Hi PrepDeb,

I think you're right. My husband was warning his family for years that something would happen, be it the economy or this, but he says they don't listen. It's probably best NOT to talk about stocking up now. What's funny is that the UPS guy came by today, asked if we were preparing for World War 3. HAH, but he also said we had the right idea! I think there are more than a few stocking up, for whatever reason, and I figure if nothing else it can't hurt. I just don't want it to be taken away from us, and unfortunately it looks like it could if emergency powers are enacted.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

During the 1964 Alaska earthquake, the military waited just outside Anchorage. Had there been looting, etc. that couldn't be controlled, they would have declared martial law and entered town. Some of the old timers said they were very proud that they didn't need the military's help.

Something similar could occur in an extreme pandemic - the threat of military intervention might quell many potential troublemakers.

.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Based on the PA bill (pg. 18), our homes and provisions could all be taken. Hope we never have to see that.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

My ancestors had that same problem......it was about 1774 or so.

I could swear they wrote up some paper to make sure it never happened again. ;)

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Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

;) Good point.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Yes, Wdcare, in the worst scenario I guess they could take whatever they want. Seems like we should prepare for the worst and hope for the best in this case! :(
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

I'm gambling on the odds that there would not be time or manpower to search homes to gather goods. Since we do not live in an area of wealthy people, I doubt that anyone would expect us to have much stored.

If we keep a low profile and don't draw attention to ourselves, we will all probably be fine.
In our situation, old friends of ours moved next door several years ago.
We have half acre lots and a gate between the properties at the back.
So we can go between the two properties without being noticed.
We have stored a lot of food and other supplies.
They have a generator that runs on natural gas, plenty of firewood and a pool. By joining forces, we should be able to cover most needs.

I've stored extra rice and beans that we can leave on the doorstep of neighbors if things get bad along with some boullion. It may not be gourmet, but it'll fill the belly and provide some nutrition.

Hopefully, shortages will be short-lived, but I'd rather not spend more time than necessary in stores if things get bad.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

That's what we're doing too Deb. My husband has started talking to neighbors, apparently almost all of them, at least around here, are planning at least in some form for whatever may happen. It doesn't necessarily mean swine flu, but people are stocking up. We only have an acre, which is a joke compared to everyone out here, but that's okay. We have a garden and a few chickens. Up until our money situation went bust last week, we were going to build a root cellar to store our potatoes we grew. Now we are going to just have to make due with the basement under the kitchen. I think you're right though, and that's key. Especially in rural areas you can work with your neighbors. Perhaps in the cities, not so much.
 
Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Re: US: Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Snowy,

Military to organize and protect and keep the calm is one thing, obviously their physical presence would be a deterrence alone to looters. But the potential confiscation is another thing I'm concerned about and that I'm not into at all.
 
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