• FluTrackers.com Inc. does not provide medical advice. Information on this web site is collected from various internet resources, and the FluTrackers board of directors makes no warranty to the safety, efficacy, correctness or completeness of the information posted on this site by any author or poster. The information collated here is for instructional and/or discussion purposes only and is NOT intended to diagnose or treat any disease, illness, or other medical condition. Every individual reader or poster should seek advice from their personal physician/healthcare practitioner before considering or using any interventions that are discussed on this website. By continuing to access this website you agree to consult your personal physican before using any interventions posted on this website, and you agree to hold harmless FluTrackers.com Inc., the board of directors, the members, and all authors and posters for any effects from use of any medication, supplement, vitamin or other substance, device, intervention, etc. mentioned in posts on this website, or other internet venues referenced in posts on this website.
  • We are not asking for any donations. Do not donate to any entity who says they are raising funds for us.

DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

I guess what farmers and other rural inhabitants in Egypt, or Nigeria or Indonesia, etc. need is:

- feasible alternative methods to safely work with poultry on a daily basis;

- a good and prompt compensation scheme.

These policies are not easy to implement. First step is to say you want it, in stead of complaining about the "ignorance" of the rural poor. As long as rural people do not really have a choice, frequent human/poultry interaction will continue, resulting in more human BF victims.

My 2 cents...
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

AlaskaDenise
Thank you for writing to NAMRU-3 and posting the reply.
JT
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

A golden 2 cents, Dutchy! :)

You've truly hit the nail on the head.

What "feasible alternative methods to safely work with poultry on a daily basis" can work within the low cost advantage of a backyard flock? Will simply caging chickens work? There are obvious problems with simple cages. This will be one of those problems where the only real solutions must involve the impacted group.

But you're right....it's completely unrealistic to expect the world's poor to freely give up their only economic protein source.

.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

Guess you are right Denise, the option of caging will be only one piece of the puzzle. Solutions won't be easy and won't be the same in Egypt as in Nigeria, or Indonesia.

The important thing is: in what direction(s) are you going to look for solutions?

Not sure where the focus has to be: when I'm understanding the book of Dr Greger correctly, the real problem is not in the backyard flocks, but in the current industrial poultry / animal systems. This sector of our economic system has a much stronger voice than the rural poor...., so the blame will be put on the victims....?
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

We need to look backward to the cause (current industrial poultry / animal systems) and forward to all the victims - backyard flocks and any human pandemic.

As long as profits write the rules for the food industry, this and other food-related problems will never be resolved. There must be some accountability for consequences.

Industry has the resources to change, but the world's poor cannot without assistance (both financial & technical). Hopefully researchers can work alongside rural farmers to develop realistic alternatives.

We discount the importance of food production everywhere, whether it be food security, food purity, food availability, food safety, etc. I recently heard a NPR story about future land use, where they said the most critical element in future land use will be provision for food production.

We seriously underestimate the importance of a variety of food issues. I hope we don't learn all these lessons the hard way.

.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

from the latest Bloomberg story at http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14544

Specimens from the most recent three Egyptian cases tested positive for avian influenza A(H5N1) virus by the country's Central Public Health Laboratory. The virus was also detected in specimens from two of the three patients by the U.S. Naval Medical Research Unit No.3 (NAMRU-3), WHO said.

The samples will be sent to a laboratory that works with WHO for further testing including characterization of the virus, the Geneva-based agency said.
Click to expand...

What is the further testing at another lab & which lab? Didn't NAMRU-3 release the sequence to GENBANK in prior cases?

.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

AlaskaDenise said:
We need to look backward to the cause (current industrial poultry / animal systems) and forward to all the victims - backyard flocks and any human pandemic....We discount the importance of food production everywhere, whether it be food security, food purity, food availability, food safety, etc. I recently heard a NPR story about future land use, where they said the most critical element in future land use will be provision for food production.

We seriously underestimate the importance of a variety of food issues. I hope we don't learn all these lessons the hard way.
.
Click to expand...

Excellent forward thinking, Denise, regarding a "systems based" solution!

Therein lies "the catch": The further into a pandemic we get, the more people will rely on locally produced food. And that may include raising one's own poultry.

If studies have shown that chickens do *not* spread H5N1 via aerosols, then raising chickens in cages may be workable...??
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

AlaskaDenise said:
from the latest Bloomberg story at http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14544



What is the further testing at another lab & which lab? Didn't NAMRU-3 release the sequence to GENBANK in prior cases?

.
Click to expand...
Most of the HA sequences from Egypt are from NAMRU-3. However, some sequences (ISDN numbered) are from WHO H5 group (Weybridge) and one is from the Capua lab, sequenced at TIGR:

<TABLE class=resultstable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140062 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140062 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/1/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1671 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217553 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042622 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/10845-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140063 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140063 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/2/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1700 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=186854 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ862001 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/2253-1/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1707 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140049 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140049 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1698 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=185847 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ837587 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/5610NAMRU3-F3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1595 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=185848 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ837588 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/5611NAMRU3-AN/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1613 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=185849 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ837589 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/5612NAMRU3-S/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1604 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=138808 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ447199 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/960N3-004/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1673 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=186855 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ862002 </TD><TD>A/duck/Egypt/2253-3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1707 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=212298 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>CY016899 </TD><TD>A/duck/Egypt/2253-3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1743 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=215628 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF061116 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/12374-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1639 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217091 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042614 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/2763-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=139393 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ464377 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/2782-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1640 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217092 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042615 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/2783-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217093 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042616 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/2786-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217094 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042617 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/2947-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217095 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042618 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/3105-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217097 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042619 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/3458-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217096 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042620 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/5494-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217098 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042621 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/5614-NAMRU3/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140050 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140050 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/902782/06 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1692 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140051 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140051 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/902786/06 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1686 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=185850 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>DQ837590 </TD><TD>A/turkey/Egypt/5613NAMRU3-T/2006 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1603 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217555 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042624 </TD><TD>A/teal/Egypt/14051-NAMRU3/2005 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1596 </TD><TD>2005 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=217554 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>EF042623 </TD><TD>A/teal/Egypt/9885-NAMRU3/2005 </TD><TD>HA (4) </TD><TD>1197 </TD><TD>2005 </TD><TD>H5 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

AlaskaDenise said:
from the latest Bloomberg story at http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14544



What is the further testing at another lab & which lab? Didn't NAMRU-3 release the sequence to GENBANK in prior cases?

.
Click to expand...

Sequences other than HA are by Weybridge or Capua/TIGR

<TABLE class=resultstable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140074 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140074 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/1/2006 </TD><TD>NA (6) </TD><TD>1371 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140075 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140075 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/2/2006 </TD><TD>NA (6) </TD><TD>1363 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140064 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140064 </TD><TD>A/chicken/Egypt/3/2006 </TD><TD>NA (6) </TD><TD>1364 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=212300 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>CY016901 </TD><TD>A/duck/Egypt/2253-3/2006 </TD><TD>NA (6) </TD><TD>1352 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#a7c4ef><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140065 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140065 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/902782/06 </TD><TD>NA (6) </TD><TD>1314 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD><TD></TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD align=left><INPUT onclick=setAll(this.checked) type=checkbox value=140066 name=checkbox> </TD><TD class=displaytablerow align=left></TD><TD>ISDN140066 </TD><TD>A/Egypt/902786/06 </TD><TD>NA (6) </TD><TD>1329 </TD><TD>2006 </TD><TD>H5N1 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

4-ABBA said:
......If studies have shown that chickens do *not* spread H5N1 via aerosols, then raising chickens in cages may be workable...??
Click to expand...

That's the real catch.....how many studies are there on economically feasible biosecurity procedures for the millions of global poor?

Wanna make a guess about the relative research dollars invested in the above vs. high-profit pharma research?

Hopefully some socially-responsible NGOs or others have done some of this work.

.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

AlaskaDenise said:
That's the real catch.....how many studies are there on economically feasible biosecurity procedures for the millions of global poor?

Wanna make a guess about the relative research dollars invested in the above vs. high-profit pharma research?

Hopefully some socially-responsible NGOs or others have done some of this work.

.
Click to expand...

Qinghai H5N1 is in upper repiratory tract of humans and birds.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

AlaskaDenise said:
That's the real catch.....how many studies are there on economically feasible biosecurity procedures for the millions of global poor?

Wanna make a guess about the relative research dollars invested in the above vs. high-profit pharma research?
.
Click to expand...

In theory, this research should not require a mega-corporation or university study. Simple experiments could be done--anywhere: Compare the fatalities of caged chickens vs. free in the same yard or town.

Has this simple experiment been done?
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

4-ABBA said:
In theory, this research should not require a mega-corporation or university study. Simple experiments could be done--anywhere: Compare the fatalities of caged chickens vs. free in the same yard or town.

Has this simple experiment been done?
Click to expand...

It may not be quite that simple....have you ever raised chickens? As Dr. Niman posted above - URI-->URI is not simple to stop.

However it's a good subject for some googling (sound like something a turkey would do :D ).

.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

4-ABBA said:
In theory, this research should not require a mega-corporation or university study. Simple experiments could be done--anywhere: Compare the fatalities of caged chickens vs. free in the same yard or town.

Has this simple experiment been done?
Click to expand...

WHO has yet to produce ONE match between H5N1 from a human and closely associated bird in Indonesia after well over a year of reported human cases (or one cat/dog H5N1 sequence from Indonesia beyond the sequence from a year ago).

Experiments don't get much simpler than that.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

If we're to protect humans from future AI in the generic sense (H5, H7, H9), we could look as the success of Israeli poultry producers - they use biometrically sealed building with fully automated feeders/waters, etc....not very economically feasible for the poor.

Although there have been no bird vs. human matches of current strains, why does there seem to be lots of coincidental bird & human deaths?

.
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

Dr. Niman, do your H5 travelogs include sequences from chickens?

AlaskaDenise said:
If we're to protect humans from future AI in the generic sense (H5, H7, H9), we could look as the success of Israeli poultry producers - they use biometrically sealed building with fully automated feeders/waters, etc....not very economically feasible for the poor.

Although there have been no bird vs. human matches of current strains, why does there seem to be lots of coincidental bird & human deaths?

.
Click to expand...
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

Qinghai H5N1 is in upper repiratory tract of humans and birds.





sorry to bother you dr niman,do you mean at the minute with the above sentence.?
 
Re: DISCUSSION - Hanut, Gharbiyah, Egypt - 12/23+

from MHSC's post today about the 10th case....
Radi asked people to stop buying alive birds to eat, recommending that it is better to change their habits and buy slaughtered birds which have been done under the supervision of the authorities.
Click to expand...

I hope those inspected birds are affordable. Does anyone have info about the cost relative to the wages in the area?

Perhaps the inspection expense could be subsidized. :)

.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top