DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

[Jonesie]

DILEMMA: WHERE TO MOVE?

IF there is time I plan on putting my house up for sale in the suburbs near a huge metropolitan area and moving onto 1-5 acres in the country.
I can either move onto a gravel road ... 1/4 mile off a paved road ... and 1 mile from the edge of the County Seat (population 2,750).

Or I can buy acreage 5 miles out of town on a gravel road ... surrounded by large farms, with the nearest neighbors 1/2 to 1 mile away.

Now, I did talk to the police to find out where the crimes occur in the area NOW. (Breaking and entering)

They said there is almost no burglaries in any of the small towns. Breaking and enterings occur out in the farming areas further out of town. Many of the people out there have a few acres, do not farm, and go to work daily, which leaves the premises empty.

Now that is in normal times. During a pandemic, when people are desperate for food, am I better off 5 miles out of town or within 1 mile of the town? If there is no gasoline, the townsfolk can very well walk 1 mile on a paved road to ransack my house and steal from my garden, whereas 5 miles down a dirt road is a bit of a jaunt, even on a bicycle.

IF I have enough time, I will put in a vary large garden, fruit trees and blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, etc.... on the new property.

What is your best guess as the better place to live?

>^..^<
If I live within the town limits, I will have city sewers and city water and piped in gas, which mean they could all fail. So I thought having propane, my own water well, and my own septic field would be better. I can also buy a place with a wood burning furnace in a basement.

But most places in the county have to have a sump pump which means electricity is needed to keep the basement from flooding. If the basements flood, the health dept will make the people move out of the homes, as it is against health regulations.

But I was told if I had a walk-out basement, they just don't ever flood. (?) And to buy property on which to build a walk-out basement to get around the problem of a sump-pump failure.

There is a Walmart in the large town, an independent large grocer, several restaurants and smaller food specialty stores, banks, and gas stations. I did talk to an individual working on their pandemic plan. He says the area will be 'abandoned' during a pandemic. Food trucks will be diverted from this farming area (consisting of at least 6 counties) and the supplies sent to the large metropolitan area from which I want to move. Most of the people within this vast rural area are poor and won't have the means to stockpile a decent amount of food, before actual starvation sets in. If there are no gasoline deliveries and the stores unable to acquire food to sell, they will close; and the people will have to walk or bike 30 miles to a much larger city which will have some food, maybe.

People will be expected to live off the land and buy from local farmers in the country, which is 30 miles from the larger city. But there is nothing to buy from farmers in the winter, and the harvest season is just a couple of months in late summer and fall. This is a frigid northern state. The farming area is economically depressed also. Am I better off in a suburb where there will be some food deliveries, or way out in the country with no food deliveries?

(Maybe I should just stay where I am?) The suburb I live in has always been rated as one of the safest in the nation. But my suburb is within 6 miles of one of the 3 worst crime areas in the nation. And that big city will probably see a lot of civil unrest and rioting during a pandemic. Also organized crime, hi-jackings of food trucks, muggings and break-ins.

Would I be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire if I moved 85 miles out in the country? The homes in my suburb are about 50 feet apart. And here I have about 1,000 sq.ft. for a vegetable garden. About 1 in 30 people in my subdivision are prepping.

I am stumped as to what to do now.

What are your feelings as to the better place to live?

 

[Sally Furniss]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

The average walking speed is 4 miles per hour. So no real difference between 1 mile and 5.

Advantage of being near a small town is that you can help them and they can help you. You would have to put a lot of work in and learn to get to know everybody before hand.

If you are concerned about power going off for any length of time then prep to that level.

I would not have a property with a below ground basement that could flood. Been there done that.

If you have the opportunity to go 85 miles out and you enjoy the country side then good.

 

[Laidback Al]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

There is a natural tendency when talking about SIP (sheltering in place) or protective sequestration to assume that if neighbors are 1 mile away then you must be that much safer if all your neighbors are 5 miles away. The thinking goes that the greater the isolation, the safer you will be.

But humans are social creatures. As social animals we survive by working together throughout all levels of society starting at the family level and the neighborly level. So the question you posed, should I move to a remote country location, a small community, or stay in a large urban center is not the right question.

You should ask yourself, where can I go to find a local group of like-minded people that are willing to work together in the face of a natural disaster or pandemic. SIP or total sequestration is not a permanent solution to a pandemic. There will be an afterwards, and if you are foresighted enough now, you can associate yourself with a community that is planning for the "afterwards".

Of course, some of the burden of spreading information about a pandemic and helping others prepare will probably fall on you. But your best chance of surviving a pandemic and coming out on the other side will come not from sheltering in place, but ensuring that you and the rest of your local community can weather the pandemic storm together to survive and rebuild.

 

[JohnW]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

But humans are social creatures. As social animals we survive by working together throughout all levels of society starting at the family level and the neighborly level. So the question you posed, should I move to a remote country location, a small community, or stay in a large urban center is not the right question.

You should ask yourself, where can I go to find a local group of like-minded people that are willing to work together in the face of a natural disaster or pandemic. SIP or total sequestration is not a permanent solution to a pandemic. There will be an afterwards, and if you are foresighted enough now, you can associate yourself with a community that is planning for the "afterwards".

Very well put. I agree that community is key. I believe it is Barry who pointed out that communities that responded together had a far lower death rate in 1918 than those where the people refused to "bear one another's burdens".

We are fortunate to live in the country, and have wonderful neighbors. I have lived in urban areas, suburban areas and the country and will take the country every time...but, then, my nickname at work was "John Boy" for many years, so I'm probably a "little bit country". Finding like minded people with whom you share common values is important, I believe. Developing relationships with those people before trouble comes is also important.

Country living has some advantages you would not have in the city. Folks in the country tend to be fairly self reliant, fairly good with their hands, are used to growing and fixing things and "making do". In addition, a surplus of food abounds. Within a half-mile of my house are a turkey farm, a dairy farm and a beef farm. It's not the meat that's important here...it's the stores they have to feed them...cracked corn, soy beans, etc. You can live a long time on Johnny Cakes, folks are prone to share here, and there is lot of room to grow your own if the need arises.

 

[DRJJ]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

A small isolated community where people can work together to survive, feed themselves, provide safety, enforce isolation from intruders, provide emotional support, etc. is best from my perspective.

Snowy, in one post at few months ago, referred to people living in urban areas at having as much chance of survival as the chickens in Jakarta.

Ideally you would team up with a neighborhood which would be one of several neighborhoods clustering together to collaborate and pool resources and provide protection.

Many of the defunct farms you mention may have land, equipment and people with know how about farming and survival. Prep with some pounds of barley seed, etc. and Calcium Hypochlorite (Pool Shock(?)),so that you can be a resource to your neighborhood and influence how your neighborhood responds.

 

[JohnW]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

Your comment about calcium hypochlorite reminded me that I wanted to mention that many folks in rural communities have wells, not city water. Generally, this water is pure but not accessible when the electricity goes out. Part of my pandemic preparations includes a bucket designed for drilled wells.

http://www.wisementrading.com/water/well_bucket.htm

 

[Daisy]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

What about the problem of acceptance from a small rural community when moving from the city. When I was a teenager my parents moved us out of suburban Detroit to northern Michigan. Whilst the kids at school accepted us, their parents did not, and requested their kids to not associate with us. My parents, who had just become Gentleman Farmers, were never accepted. The locals would buy our eggs and fruit and my father became active with the village council but no social life. After I left the nest (I am the youngest) my parents moved to California. All us kids ended up moving out west one-by-one.

This personal experience makes me fearful of moving to the countryside just before a possible pandemic. You would be excluded, not included in the social fabric of the rural community IMHO.

ps. I am back home from hospital. Thanks for not having the pandemic without me. Thanks all for words and thoughts of support. I am now sheltering in place as my head heals. Very OUCH.

 

[sharon sanders]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

Daisy - I am glad you are at home and recuperating. If you need anything, let us know.

 

[Daisy]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

Daisy - I am glad you are at home and recuperating. If you need anything, let us know.

Thank you, Florida!

 

[Amish Country]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

Hi All

Here is my two cents for what it is worth. Yes I prefer the idea of being in a more rural community than in the city during a pandemic. There are things that people moving to the "country" should take into consideration.

Yes people country people may be leery of city folk moving into the neighborhood. Especially if the transplanted city folk:

1) Demand, expect or resent the fact they can't get the same services they were use to in the city. Services such as: city water, trash removable, good roads, paved roads, access to close hospitals or health care, shopping, entertainment, a wide choice of eateries, mass transit, dependable power and telephones, quick response times from fire, emergency personnel and police. These things may be limited or not available (without a pandemic).

2) These services cost money. They mean higher taxes. This could be why when some rural folk see huge high priced houses going up on 1 or 2 acre lots they are not happy. These developments mean more demand on the current info structure, more schools, more traffic, more.....

3) It can also mean more restrictions on the rural population as they become out numbered by transplants. Areas open to hunting can become smaller. Restrictions can be put on activities such as burning trash or brush, noise, land use, water use, rural businesses, live stock etc.

4) Getting use to country life may take some adjustments for some. Not having almost instant access to goods and services you have in the city can be a problem for some. Adjustments like the stench of freshly spread manure on a neighbors field in the morning (It could last for days). The fine dust of ploughing in the spring time that gets into and coats everything. Getting caught behind a tractor on a twisting back country road when you are in a hurry. Not being able to leave the area due to roads closed by snow, ice, flooded streams, washouts, slides, downed trees, a broken down truck or farm vehicle in a narrow country road, etc. Having a skunk take up residence under your porch, mice in the pantry, raccoons in the garbage, deer and rabbits in the garden. Neighbors with rifles or shotguns tracking wounded game across your property. Finding your neighbor's stray livestock munching on your front yard. A rabid raccoon in the backyard. These are not emergencies. These are day to day problems that can and do crop up in rural communities. You as the property owner are expected to be able to take care of them. Calling the local police will probably not endear them to you as it means more paper work for them and takes them away from more pressing duties. As there may not be a large police force in the country they may have a large area of responsibility and may resent demands from new comers who may be viewed as being unable to take care of their own problems.

5) Another thing to consider is the amount of work, hard physical work. If some one has never: gardened, taken care of livestock, preserved food for a family, cooked every day every meal for a family, cut a years supply of wood, used an outhouse in winter, fixed a fence, planted fruit trees, patched a roof, fixed a car or tractor, built a fire, tended a fire, hauled their own trash or any of those other minor inconveniences and duties of country life, this could be a problem.

5) What value would a city dweller bring to the country during a pandemic? What assets to the community would they bring? A doctor, nurse, fire fighter, mechanic, small engine repair person, plumber, electrician, propane worker may find a warmer welcome than an out of work computer programmer, CEO or a stock broker.

6) As to social acceptance there are areas that are like that and may always be. In some areas a new comer will never be truly accepted. I know some of the sayings: "You can sleep in the garage and it will not make you a car" or "A cat can give birth in the stove that doesn't mean she will produce biscuits". Useful people will usually be tolerated.

My goal here is not to scare people away from moving to the country. It is to give them some small idea of what they may have to deal with if they do.

 

[Jonesie]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

Having lived both in the country and the big city, and also the Big Apple -Manhattan, I have seen how well people have adjusted to their lifestyles. There are definitely more people arriving from rural areas that just cannot adjust to the hustle and bustle of city life. But the city folk just love the country and seem to adjust very well to a quieter and slower pace. And with the decades long brain drain from the rural areas to the city, the relocation of business leaders and executive types back to the rural areas from the city benefits the rural areas greatly.
I have found a nice site with a great deal of info on what can be expected from transplanting oneself from the big city into the farm country. I have always found the small town residents, farmers and ranchers very friendly and open to new neighbors and new ideas.

Why retire in the big city, when one can retire in a beautiful, peaceful rural area, (or small town) where the air is clean, property is less expensive and taxes and crime rates lower? And a short 1 or 2 hour drive can bring you back to city life, malls, and the entertainment and friends you enjoyed being with for years. And if you do happen to be a retired executive, CEO or stockbroker, the local Chamber of Commerce would welcome your expertise as a volunteer to help the economic growth of some of these depressed areas. I have seen the County Seat, where I have my eye on moving, flourish in the last 15 years because of the influx of retired executive types who have attracted a Walmart, K-Mart, various fast and fine food restaurants, a golf course, theater, and small factories to the small town. It is now a much more vibrant and prosperous area. And the unemployment rate has gone down. Now the surrounding farmers don't have to drive the 45 miles into the nearest city to find low priced goods, services, and entertainment. It is a win-win situation for everyone in the area.
And in the face of a looming Pandemic, relocation brings additional security and benefits.

Here is an exerpt:
http://www.govbiz.com/buyingtips.htm

On the up side many of the inconveniences of past rural living have been overcome. Independent home energy systems have become more affordable. Advancement in reliability and the popularity in alternative energy sources such as solar, steam engines and generators has placed these technologies in reach of the country residents budget. The tremendous growth in the number of cell phones has brought the price down almost as low as the model that plugs into the wall. Satellite and direct TV dishes make TV reception available even in the most rugged remote mountain ranges.

Comfortable, multi purpose, 4 wheel drive vehicles and a completed highway system have made many rural areas more accessible. Mail Order Companies can deliver food, clothing, auto parts, books and just about anything required for daily living right to your door via one of the many highly competitive shipping companies. Progress has made country life a real possibility even for the staunchest urbanite.

Location, Location, Location

The first step to realizing the basic direction and vision for your rural property is determining in what area of the country you would like or are required to live. I say that because this will depend on the individual circumstances. If you have an existing job in the city and have worked a deal with your boss to telecommute, coming into the office only once a week, you may only be able to look at country property within 200-300 miles of your place of employment.

A retired couple maybe able to pick and move from any location in the nation. Very independent, adventurous individuals who have saved up a grub stake from large equities, severance pays or company shares may decide like those at the turn of the century to head out across the Plains in search of a potential homestead. Medical and family concerns may require a location closer to their existing location or a metropolitan area. Would be entrepreneurs may also limited by the logistics of the type of business they want to conduct.

Preferences for areas in the country maybe affected by the weather and topography. Amounts of extreme cold and heat may affect certain medical conditions such as Asthma, along with altitude and the amount of moisture in the air. Interests and hobbies play can play a major role in where a person chooses to live. If you like to ski you would prefer a mountainous state. If one were an avid gardener they would prefer a state with a longer growing season and not a lot of restrictions on irrigating. Deep sea fishing and surfing would require living in a coastal state.

Whatever the reason the United States contains just about any type of climate and topography to choose from.

 

[Amish Country]

Re: DILEMMA: SHOULD I MOVE OR STAY PUT?

Having lived both in the country and the big city, and also the Big Apple -Manhattan, I have seen how well people have adjusted to their lifestyles. There are definitely more people arriving from rural areas that just cannot adjust to the hustle and bustle of city life. But the city folk just love the country and seem to adjust very well to a quieter and slower pace. And with the decades long brain drain from the rural areas to the city, the relocation of business leaders and executive types back to the rural areas from the city benefits the rural areas greatly.
I have found a nice site with a great deal of info on what can be expected from transplanting oneself from the big city into the farm country. I have always found the small town residents, farmers and ranchers very friendly and open to new neighbors and new ideas.

Why retire in the big city, when one can retire in a beautiful, peaceful rural area, (or small town) where the air is clean, property is less expensive and taxes and crime rates lower? And a short 1 or 2 hour drive can bring you back to city life, malls, and the entertainment and friends you enjoyed being with for years. And if you do happen to be a retired executive, CEO or stockbroker, the local Chamber of Commerce would welcome your expertise as a volunteer to help the economic growth of some of these depressed areas. I have seen the County Seat, where I have my eye on moving, flourish in the last 15 years because of the influx of retired executive types who have attracted a Walmart, K-Mart, various fast and fine food restaurants, a golf course, theater, and small factories to the small town. It is now a much more vibrant and prosperous area.

On the up side many of the inconveniences of past rural living have been overcome. Independent home energy systems have become more affordable. Advancement in reliability and the popularity in alternative energy sources such as solar, steam engines and generators has placed these technologies in reach of the country residents budget. The tremendous growth in the number of cell phones has brought the price down almost as low as the model that plugs into the wall. Satellite and direct TV dishes make TV reception available even in the most rugged remote mountain ranges.

Comfortable, multi purpose, 4 wheel drive vehicles and a completed highway system have made many rural areas more accessible. Mail Order Companies can deliver food, clothing, auto parts, books and just about anything required for daily living right to your door via one of the many highly competitive shipping companies. Progress has made country life a real possibility even for the staunchest urbanite.

Hi Jonesie

Yours was an interesting post. I am also a transplant having moved to and from urban areas to the country and back a few times. There are valid points that you touch on. Thing is here we are talking about pandemics not so much retirement. JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE CAN BE WONDERFUL IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH MONEY. What will goods and services cost during a pandemic? I do not want to think about it! If history is any predictor the answer is "a lot".

Yes I agree the technology does exist to be free of the grid. There are some draw backs with that idea. First off is the price. For solar for my home, last time we check it, would have been about $23,000 US. We do not live in a big house and for the most part have energy efficient appliances. 23k is just too much for many people to retrofit. Yes we have a generator but it is not a whole house. We have to watch what fuses are flipped on and what is in use at any one given time. I am currently looking for 50 gallon drums for fuel storage. We realize that that may only hold us a few months with careful monitoring of use and if no one steals it from us in time of need or shortage. May be you have the budget for these things but please realize many, many people do not. Many who are preparing may be making significant sacrifices in life style choices to do so.

As for a four wheel drive vehicle over rough back country roads. I've done it and my old bones are just not up to doing it anymore, at least by choice. A comfortable modern 4 wheel SUV may use up a lot more fuel than an old Sally Rand version pick up truck. I remember a quote that went something like, "having 4 wheel drive means you can get stuck farther from civilization (help) than you used to."

Communication has improved. Cell phones are great if you are not in an area with a lot of "dead spots", where the cell towers don't or can't cover. If you can afford them, some can't. Internet communication is great including online calling and cable (if you can get in your area of the country) but how well will they or the traditional telephone lines work during the mass demand of pandemic is anyone?s guess. In 1918 some calls were monitored and could terminated if deemed unimportant.

Mail order companies are great but during a pandemic will they be able to operate when there may be quarantines and fuel rationing and shortages? Would you want to receive goods from an area known to have an avian flu outbreak? Would it even be allowed? Also when ordering goods it takes time to have them delivered this requires for thought, planning and possibly budgeting.

The retired executive, CEO or stockbroker during a pandemic will probably not be familiar with the informal structure that gets a lot of the work done in rural communities or have the necessary people/history knowledge to be effective. They may not appreciate the resources or limitations of the local info structure. Local entrenched government officials would likely resist "help" from outsiders however well meaning. If you don't believe me ask your local officials for the detailed pandemic/medical emergency plan for your area and see if you get access to more than what is on their web site or a pamphlet or two. During a pandemic the CEO may be helpful checking on their neighbors, organizing a neighborhood watch, helping out in their immediate neighborhood, tending to the sick, (that may mean cleaning bed pans, mopping up bodily fluids, moving patients) feeding the recovering, caring for the dead.

Yes there is health care out here but a 20 - 30 mile drive to a hospital can seem like an eternity when you are talking about things like heart attack, stroke, appendices, child birth or trauma. Can you imagine what it would be like in a pandemic? With roads closed or blocked? What if you have run out of fuel for your SUV and the paramedics are on other critical runs and it is just the luck of the draw who gets picked up?

Yes I agree life has improved in rural communities dramatically over the last 60 years. It has for many where ever they are in developed countries. Just remember that the traditional small family run farm of 60 years ago may be few and far between. Factory farms of today are designed for turning out large quantities of corn, soybeans and grain and will probably not have the seeds on hand to provide vegetables or fruit for local consumption. If they do have livestock how long will their feed last? Many of them may be effected by JIT (just in time supply lines) also. How many large livestock or dairy producers can supply their own feed or be supported by local feed sources? How well will they produce with shortages of personnel, fuel or power? Most modern farms run on fossil fuel and may depend on fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides etcetera that probably require fossil fuels to make and deliver and will probably have to be shipped in from some other area.

Money is a wonderful tool that can help you overcome many difficulties where ever you live if you have enough of it and use it wisely.