Re: CNN?
Parts of a transcript from a CNN broadcast October 2005
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/05/asb.01.html
CNN NEWSNIGHT AARON BROWN
Several Die in Canadian Nursing Home of Mystery Illness; Officials Fear Flu Pandemic; Army Chaplain Cleared of Treason Writes Book; California Law Tougher on Paparazzi
Aired October 5, 2005 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Thanks for joining us.
Things look a little different around here, but one thing certainly has not changed. There are far too many stories and really not enough time.
Just ahead, a new and potentially damaging storm on the horizon, Tammy.
Also, is there a military role in fighting a killer flu outbreak?
(SNIP)
BROWN: Well, on to the hurricane now and all that the hurricane changed.
Somewhere along the way, Katrina's aftermath became a national conversation about the appropriate role of the federal government and federal agencies. Where should money be spent? When should troops go in? Yesterday, at the White House, that conversation shifted from the weather to the flu. It mutated, if you will, just as the virus might.
And if it does, the president says he wants more power to use the military to fight an outbreak. A discussion on that point in a moment.
First, some background from CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Worst case, a mutant strain of avian flu that can be passed from person to person hits America's biggest city, New York. The president orders active duty and National Guard troops to seal the island of Manhattan, closing the airports, including Newark, JFK and La Guardia, and shutting the city's numerous bridges and tunnels.
It's a scenario not unlike the one depicted in the 1995 movie "Outbreak."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OUTBREAK")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your town is being quarantined.
DUSTIN HOFFMAN, ACTOR: We got 19 dead, you got 100 more infected. It's spreading like a brushfire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you talking about?
HOFFMAN: If one of them's got it, then 10 of them have got it now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: But how practical is the idea that any city, much less one with as many ways in and out as New York, can be sealed by military force? MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: How do you possibly limit the flow of people and goods in and out of a city like this? New York needs to have food brought in, it needs to have other things brought in. You need a certain amount of crossing of the perimeter or the city becomes uninhabitable.
MCINTYRE: The reality is these days a quarantine is more likely to attempt to limit movement of infected people by screening passengers at airports, confining sick people to their homes and banning large gatherings of people where the infection can be spread.
What the military brings is the same things it brought to hurricane relief -- logistics and manpower, especially medical facilities and the ability to move them quickly and operate without support. Where the issues get thorny is the Hollywood scenario -- combat troops strong arming, possibly shooting desperate victims of a natural disaster.
O'HANLON: It would be an ugly thing if we had to use the military. Nobody in the armed forces would relish the thought of imposing some kind of a martial law-like environment on their own fellow citizens, especially on law-abiding citizens who had done nothing criminal.
MCINTYRE: One problem that needs to be addressed in the federal government's pandemic response plan is protecting first-responders. Usually, they would be vaccinated ahead of time. But since, so far, there is no vaccine for avian flu, that means coming up with other measures to prevent exposure.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: There are practicalities and legalities and a little bit history at play here. The legal part involves something called the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 -- you remember that -- which bars the regular Army from acting as a police force.
We're joined now by James Carafano, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
Look, this is not -- I'm not -- I have nothing against the military, OK? But there is something -- and I'm not sure how to articulate it -- creepy about the idea of soldiers in the streets with their M-16s that feels un-American to me.
JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, the scenario of having, you know, soldiers standing shoulder to shoulder keeping people out of a city or Abrams tanks blocking the Brooklyn Bridge, I mean, this is just science fiction. That's not the way you would do a quarantine. It wouldn't work.
What you would use the military for is to -- you know, is to actually help people, because if you -- if you had them to stay there, you would have to bring food to them. You would want to bring medical supplies to them. That's kind of things you do.
A quarantine, to be effective, has got to have two things, sound public health policy, telling people to do sensible things, and a credible public information campaign. And what happens is, if people know what to do, the odds are, they are going to do the right thing. You know, preventing a disease outbreak, I mean, most of these diseases are either spread by human contact or close proximity.
So, you don't have to wall off a city. You just have to tell people, don't go around and hang out with people who are sick. So, the notion that we are going to use the military in some like sci-fi movie is just very, very unrealistic.
BROWN: I hope you're right. But here's what I think people both within the military, frankly, that we talked to today and people outside it on all sides of the political lines worry about is that a slope here, and the slope gets slippery. We use the military for domestic purpose for this today and who knows what we use it for tomorrow. And that puts the generals in an uncomfortable position and I think it puts some citizens in an uncomfortable spot.
CARAFANO: Right. And that's the why the law is written the way it is. And there it isn't a slippery slope. There is really nothing legally that we need to do.
First of all, the president has all kinds of authority to use the military force for logistics, for support, for all kinds of things. So, the one area in which there is some limitation, is, is the -- the -- the -- the president is prohibited by law from using the military for domestic law enforcement, except as authorized by Congress in law.
And Congress has authorized a number of exceptions in extraordinary circumstances where you can use the military. We have used the military for domestic law enforcement over 275 times in 200 years. So, this isn't new. We don't do it frequently. We shouldn't do it frequently. And, quite frankly, the law enforcement requirement in a medical response, I really think, is going to be fairly minimal.
It's not going to be soldiers lined up shoulder to shoulder in gas masks.
BROWN: Yes.
CARAFANO: Like you see in the movies.
BROWN: Did we use them in New Orleans?
CARAFANO: We could have. I mean, the last major one was in 1992 in the Los Angeles riots, where we used federal military forces and we nationalized the federal -- national -- federalized the National Guard and used them as well. That was the last really major one.
BROWN: And, Jim, we make a distinction, because there's one, in fact, between the Reserves and the National Guard.
CARAFANO: Absolutely. We have the active duty. We have Reserves. And we have the National Guard. The Reserves and the active duty are what's called Title 10 forces. They always work for the president. The National Guard can work in any one of three roles. They can work in state- active duty status. They work for the governor. He pays for their time and the use. They can be in a Title 32 status, which means they still work for the governor. They're not subject to Posse Comitatus, but the federal government will pick up the tab for exercises or disaster response.
BROWN: Yes.
CARAFANO: And then, finally, the National Guard can be federalized and work for the federal government.
So, the system we have has enormous flexibility. It -- it -- it -- it's -- there -- there aren't any real legal issues here. We are really debating something that simply doesn't need to be debated. The law is perfectly fine the way it is. It protects the civil-military relations we have in this country. It as an enormous amount of flexibility to do all the things we need to do for disasters. The law ain't the problem.
BROWN: Jim, thank you. It's good to see you.
CARAFANO: Thanks for...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Jim Carafano at the Heritage Foundation.
It is something the president put on the table the other day. And so it's something to talk about, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. The notion of quarantining Americans certainly one of concern.
Aaron, coming up, a mystery disease strikes and kills in Toronto. We know it is not the avian flu. The question is, what is it?
But, first, about a quarter past the hour. Time for the other news of the day, Erica Hill in Atlanta -- Erica.
(SNIP)
COOPER: More to come on the program tonight, including the rest of the preparations for the flu outbreak. The question is, are they enough? We will look at that.
BROWN: Also, coming up, another bug, not the bird flu, but, as it turns out, just as deadly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): A killer and a puzzlement.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're doing their best, let's put it that way, to get it under control. But what it really is, I don't know.
BROWN: And despite their best, 16 people have died in less than two weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People could die in 24 hours. They literally could wake up feeling OK and be dead by nightfall.
BROWN: Will the same thing happen when the bird flu hits people?
(SNIP)
Just ahead tonight, the mysterious bug that is cutting down people at a terrifying pace and the virus hunters on the trail.
And, later, putting some money back in the pockets of soldiers who bought their own armor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A deadly mystery in Canada tonight. A mysterious virus HAS killed 16 people at a nursing home in Toronto. Dozens more have been sent to the hospital. Scientists know what it is not. It is not the ordinary flu. It is not bird flu and it is not SARS. But they don't know what it is.
In a moment, we will talk with the chief medical officer of Toronto.
But, first, CNN's Keith Oppenheim.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Seven Oaks Home for the Aged in suburban Toronto is under attack. The culprit, a virus that still has not been identified. It was just a week and a half ago some of the most vulnerable patients at Seven Oaks began to get very ill.
DR. DAVID MCKEOWN, TORONTO DEPT. OF PUBLIC HEALTH: This outbreak has resulted today in six additional deaths among ill residents.
OPPENHEIM: Toronto public health officials now report the death toll has risen to 16 residents of the nursing home. All had previous medical conditions. Most were in their 80s and 90s.
In addition, 72 other people have been infected by the virus. Some are staff at Seven Oaks, some visitors. One woman whose husband is a resident worried about the unknown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're doing their best -- let's put it that way -- to get it under control, but what it really is, I don't know.
OPPENHEIM: Three different labs in Canada are trying to identify the virus. But, it turns out, in more than half of outbreaks like this, health officials in Ontario are unable to isolate the source of the disease.
DR. BARBARA YAFEE, ASSOCIATE MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH: The significant percentage of outbreaks you just will never find the organism. But we're looking for everything we can think of.
OPPENHEIM: Thirty-eight people exposed to the virus have been taken to Toronto hospitals. Officials say the health of some patients deteriorating and most are getting better. A 9-year-old boy wondered what will happen to his grandfather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope the hospital is safer and that he can eat healthy and not die.
OPPENHEIM: In the meantime, the nursing home has been closed to new patients and is for the most part keeping its doors shut.
AL DOBBINS, SEVEN OAKS RESIDENT: To me, it's been cooped up. You know? I mean, I'm so -- I'm so used to the outside. You know? And all of a sudden, bang.
OPPENHEIM: As dire as all this may seem, health experts here say this is an extreme example of a common occurrence. Across Canada and the U.S., viral outbreaks routinely kill elderly and sick patients with weakened immune systems.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's within the range of our experience in Ontario, but it's definitely at the severe end.
OPPENHEIM: With no new cases reported in the last 24 hours, health experts here believe the mysterious outbreak is being contained. They say it poses no danger to the general public. But for the people who have relatives at Seven Oaks, it may be sometime before they can feel that the threat of contagious illness is behind them.
Keith Oppenheim, CNN, Toronto.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Health officials have been warning for years of another flu epidemic that could turn incredibly deadly. But could a different kind of outbreak, a mystery virus, do the same?
Dr. David McKeown is medical officer of health in Toronto, and joins us from that city tonight. Why is there no danger to the general public?
DAVID MCKEOWN, ANCHOR, The cases in this outbreak have been confined to one nursing home. We haven't seen any spread into the community. It's a real challenge for the vulnerable, frail, elderly people in that facility, but it doesn't pose a risk to the city as a hole.
BROWN: I guess what I don't understand is viruses travel as viruses travel. Somehow it got into that facility. And I want -- I'm trying to understand how you can be so confident it won't get -- it won't travel somewhere else.
MCKEOWN: Well, viruses are present in any large city all the time. What's different about a nursing home is the vulnerability of the patients who are there. We're dealing with elderly people in their 80s and 90s who have over medical conditions so a virus that a healthy, young adult might shrug off can be a very serious illness for them.
BROWN: I mean, seriously, a reasonably healthy 56-year-old male not likely get sick from this? Or would not likely die from this?
MCKEOWN: Might well have an illness but would not likely die.
BROWN: When we're talking briefly earlier, I said, what is it about Toronto? SARS and now this. Is it that we have become -- and I mean "we" in the media. But I also mean the public at large, become more sensitive to, more aware of viruses that would have otherwise gone unreported and to a certain extent unnoticed except by those who lost loved ones.
MCKEOWN: Well, Toronto is a city that knows more than most about this kind of respiratory outbreak. Our experience in 2003 with SARS taught us some important lessons about this kind of problem. And how to respond to it.
Today, we have better surveillance. We have better protocols to control infection and I think we have better team work amongst the different players that come together to respond.
BROWN: But do we also have in this day and age tougher, stronger, meaner more deadly viruses floating around that are mutating faster and becoming more immune to the drugs that we use to treat them?
MCKEOWN: Well, of course, we are very concerned about the specter of the next pandemic, influenza. That's not what we're dealing with here in Toronto. But our preparations for that event are helping us on a day-to-day basis as we confront more common problems.
BROWN: Doctor McKeown, thanks for your time. I hope you're right, that this gets no worse than it already is. It's already bad enough. Nice to talk to you tonight. David McKeown, who's the officer of health in Toronto.
Flu is something we've dealt with for a long time. Sometimes dealt with a lot.
COOPER: All of us tend to have a very short memory, especially in television. But for a moment tonight, let's just remember a flu epidemic that has killed millions. It's not unheard of. What might happen tomorrow to us happened before. Here's Beth Nissen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It started in the first months of 1918. Maybe in rural Kansas, maybe in China, maybe France. An influenza virus mutated into deadly form.
By autumn, it had spread in hand shakes and through the air through the Americas, Africa, Europe and the battlefields of World War I, infecting eventually one fifth of the world's population. Millions could not fight the virus or secondary infections like pneumonia and died horrible deaths.
JOHN BARRY, AUTHOR, "THE GREAT INFLUENZA": Some of the really terrifying symptoms were that people would bleed not only from their nose or their mouth, but actually, from their eyes and from their ears.
NISSEN: John Barry is the author of "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Plague in History."
BARRY: People could die in 24 hours. They literally could wake up feeling OK, and be dead by night fall.
NISSEN: The lethal flu spread most quickly wherever people were concentrated in close quarters: soldiers' barracks, troop ships, city tenements in Europe and the U.S.
BARRY: In almost every city in the country, they ran out of coffins. And in Philadelphia, they actually came into a situation where priests were driving horse drawn carriages down the street, calling upon people to bring out the dead.
NISSEN: Influenza was no medieval mystery in 1918.
BARRY: People knew it was a contagious disease and the way to avoid getting it was to avoid other people.
NISSEN: But in the U.S. and elsewhere, government officials kept secret how deadly the new flu strain was, fearful the news would hurt the war effort.
BARRY: The Wilson administration only cared about one thing, winning World War I. They told lies to protect morale, in their words. Initially, they were telling everyone this is just ordinary influenza. It's nothing to be worried about. People who otherwise would have protected themselves, would have stayed home, they were not protected, and they were exposed and they died. NISSEN: Most of the dead were young adults, ages 20 to 40.
BARRY: The best number for the United States is 675,000 deaths. The overwhelming majority died between mid-September and mid-November.
NISSEN: Worldwide, the cost was literally incalculable.
BARRY: Probably at least 40 million people died. There's a Nobel Prize winner who thinks at least 50 million and possibly as many as 100 million deaths.
NISSEN: More people in a year than the Black Death of the middle ages killed in a century. Could it happen again?
BARRY: Another pandemic, unfortunately, is not only possible; it is inevitable.
NISSEN: Inevitable that another influenza virus will some day somewhere mutate to lethal form, spread among humans.
BARRY: The question is how prepared we are for it. Right now, we are not even close to ready for it.
NISSEN: Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Fifty million people. Extraordinary figure.
(SNIP)
