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A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

The question of lab contamination is not appropriate in light of the recent acquisition of G743A on unique H5N1 in 4 different countries.

I suggest you focus on Africa's current sequence data to witness recombination--------"elegant evolution" in real time.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

However, although all of the above is quite obvious, the issue of contamination is addressed equally well by either scenario. If the isolate from the same sample was resequenced 1 1/2 years later and gave the same result, then the recombination was not due to contamination.

If all of the later submissions coincidentally all came from the same species from the same location, on the same date, and coincidentally all matched, then again the recombination was not due to contamination, because the same recombination was seen in both sets of sequences.

Thus, regardless of whether the identical recombination result came from sequencing of two isolates from the same sample or came from two isolates from idependent samples that coincidentally matched the species, location, and date (multiple times), the bottom line was the same - the reproduced recombination in the two sets of sequences was NOT due to contamination.

Your point is well taken. Yes, whether or not the same or different samples were sequenced, the fact that the same recombination pattern is observed in both cases is significant. I would say it pretty much eliminates the possibility of apparent recombination resulting from random RT jumps between contaminating strains.

As highlighted in my previous post, I still have some concerns about a recurrent pattern being produced as a result of the way the sequences are put together, if indeed they are put together from overlapping fragments with the same ends. Hopefully this possibility will also be eliminated.

In my view, this is a productive line of questioning, even though the case for recombination is obviously very strong. I work with data, and I find it invaluable in my work to have a clear idea of how the data was generated, and what can go wrong at each step. Sometimes there are sources of error that one wouldn't even have thought of before looking at the "down and dirty" details. The sequences we look at here are not God-given; they are generated by a complicated process involving a number of steps, some of which are sensitive to error or contamination. I think it would be very instructive to understand this process in reasonable detail.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Which lab did the Canadian pigs? Winnipeg? Other?

Who is Olsen?

J.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Which lab did the Canadian pigs? Winnipeg? Other?

Who is Olsen?

J.

Here's the article heading. The relevant labs seem to be Wisconsin and Guelph.

Identification of Human H1N2 and Human-Swine Reassortant H1N2 and H1N1 Influenza A Viruses among Pigs in Ontario, Canada (2003 to 2005)

Alexander I. Karasin,1 Suzanne Carman,2 and Christopher W. Olsen1*
Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin?Madison, Madison, Wisconsin,1 Animal Health Laboratory, Laboratory Services Division, University of Guelph, Box 3612, Guelph, Ontario, Canada2
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Great! This is exactly what I was looking for.

For the sake of clarity, maybe we should focus on the Canadian pigs, since they are a very dramatic example, and you seem to have had some contact with Olsen already.

I would like to ask a number of questions:

1. Did their lab have the strains with long regions of sequence identity with the Canadian viruses, like Tennessee/24/77, Tennessee/26/77, NC/98, Korea/CY/02?

2. How likely is it that one of these strains could have contaminated the Canadian samples? What steps are taken to prevent this kind of contamination, and how is their effectiveness assessed?

3. The sequencing process. There is a series of steps: culturing, RNA extraction, reverse transcription, PCR and actual sequencing.
a. Are different segments sequenced from different tubes?
b. What primers are used for the PCR? Are they expected to amplify a whole segment, or do different primers at different ends of a segment amplify overlapping chunks of sequence?
c. How is the sequencing done: is the whole sequence obtained in one step, or are overlapping fragments put together to give a sequence for each segment? Would this be different for the longer and shorter segments?

4. If there is contamination, so that RNA's from two strains are present in the same tube, could this result in a sequence that looks like a recombinant? Would it make sense that the breaks occur at particular places (because of the PCR primers / sequencing fragments / some other reason?)

5. Would they be willing/able to check if contamination may have occurred, and/or resequence the isolates?

You can contact the lab directly or go through Genbank -- whichever is the best way to get an answer! Also, it would be great to forward this to the lab people on the board, and get their input.

I greatly appreciate this -- you've been very generous with your time and attention.
GSGS called the Olsen Lab a year ago and asked the same questions. You are beating a dead horse. They said there was no problem with the sequences and they stood by their published results.

It was embarassing then amd will be embarassing again if he does it again (GSGS PLEASE do not mention Recombinomics again - I had no interest in the nonsense a year ago and have no interest again this year).

Last year I said this line of questioning was on the order of "the Martians did it" and I stand by that position.

These questions have been asked and answered (many times over a year ago).

Asking the same questions and expecting a different answer speaks volumes.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

This site has a firm policy against harassment. All are warned. Do not phone call any labs. There is ZERO tolerance for this. The consequences will be swift and permanent.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

The Olsen-lab doesn't work with the Tennessee strains.
No comment about the obvious recombination and conservation
of subsequences. It wasn't mentioned in the papers either.

I don't know how to interpret this.

I also noticed last year the paper about the Nigeria-sequences :
they didn't mention the reassortment.

No one has yet officially mentioned the reassortment from January
in Indonesia.

WHO hasn't yet commented about the retracted father-sequence with
the many mutations in Karo which had led them to announce
H2H for the first time. (H2H now retracted ?)

Strange.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

The Olsen-lab doesn't work with the Tennessee strains.
No comment about the obvious recombination and conservation
of subsequences. It wasn't mentioned in the papers either.

I don't know how to interpret this...............

Strange.

Influenza genetics is much more about politics than science. The obvious recombination in H5N1 in Hong Kong is acitively ignored

H5N1 Hong Kong PB2 Recombinant (slide 11)
H5N1 Hong Kong PB1 Recombinant (slide 12)
H5N1 Hong Kong PA Recombinants (slide 13)
H5N1 Hong Kong NP Recombinant (slide 14)


and the two labs resposnible for these sequences usually just publish partial sequences (and the journals let them get away with it - sequences going back 7 years have still NOT been published in full).

Recombination is acrively ignored.

As far as the Olsen lab is concerned, the examples of obvious recombiantion extend well beyond the 1977 sequences from Tennessee. Explaining their data by lab contamination would require contamination of the 2003/2004 Canadian swine isoaltes with the 1998 isolate form North Carolina, the 2002 isolate from Korea, and the 1931 isolate from Iowa, all at the same time, but only in 2 of the 8 gene segments. More contamination would be required by more isolates for the sequences of other gene segments.

Trying to come up with a scenario where one lab could contaminate sequence results with so many different isolates is not realistic, and such suggestions are largely limited to internet dicussions by those not in the field, those who don't understand how the sequences are generated, or those who haven't looked at the data (or combinations of the above, including those who fall into all three categories).

The Canadian swine sequence were published well over a year ago and there has been no retraction of the sequences or the paper. The recombination is extensive and in all isolates and in multiple genes with multiple parental sequences.

It is reality.
 
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Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

someone should ask them.
And this someone could be YOU.

with Florida1's permission ;-)
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

This site has a firm policy against harassment. All are warned. Do not phone call any labs. There is ZERO tolerance for this. The consequences will be swift and permanent.

F1 could you clarify what you mean please?
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

We are an international website seen, on a monthly basis, by over 120+ countries. Many use us as a news source. In addition, we are a public charity.

We do not endorse or encourage any kind of harassment.

Controversy has always followed Niman. We have many scientists who post and lurk here. We will not allow the peripheral organizations that they interact with to become embroiled in some kind of world wide internet instigation from this site.

These are real people who have real jobs and families.

We want vigorous debate as seen above, but that is where it stops on this site.

:yinyang:
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Mark, I think the best way to test your contamination theory
is to just remove one virus from the database and then
ask, whether there still can be shown recombination.

This is the case with the Canadian Swine, Chinese recombinations
from last year's sequences Hubei,Hebei, etc.
also Korea, I think and others.

But not with the Memphis/104/1976 or the Wisconsin DQ.
Although in the latter case there would still be the strange reassortment
in HA,NP with the Heilongyiang virus.

What was with the Australian teal ? Could we remove one virus
to destroy recombination evidence ?
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Mark, I think the best way to test your contamination theory
is to just remove one virus from the database and then
ask, whether there still can be shown recombination.

This is the case with the Canadian Swine, Chinese recombinations
from last year's sequences Hubei,Hebei, etc.
also Korea, I think and others.

But not with the Memphis/104/1976 or the Wisconsin DQ.
Although in the latter case there would still be the strange reassortment
in HA,NP with the Heilongyiang virus.

What was with the Australian teal ? Could we remove one virus
to destroy recombination evidence ?

Could you explain again what the proposed strategy is?

Do you suggest that Genbank should be alerted to the presence of a sequence which has evidence of recombination/contamination, so that Genbank can challenge the submitting lab to either withdraw it, or stand by the submission and declare there was no contamination?

The Australian teal has no evidence for recombination. It is simply an example where the "same" strain has a very different sequence, which is close to the sequence of a different isolate from the same submission batch. I believe it's contamination, so it should be retracted anyway, but I don't think that will shed any light on recombination.
 
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Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Trying to come up with a scenario where one lab could contaminate sequence results with so many different isolates is not realistic, and such suggestions are largely limited to internet dicussions by those not in the field, those who don't understand how the sequences are generated, or those who haven't looked at the data (or combinations of the above, including those who fall into all three categories.

I fully admit to not understanding how the sequences are generated.

That's why I keep asking about it. Could you or anyone else here walk me through this process is some technical detail?

In particular, I would like to understand: how many PCR primers are used? what is the length of the fragments amplified by PCR? how many sequencing primers are used? How is the final sequence assembled?

A related issue is this: some of the sequences are partial. There must be a technical reason for this -- the PCR failed to amplify a part of the sequence, etc. What happens there?
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

ahh yes. How did you find it BTW. ?

We could search systematically for such examples
and then submit the list to genbank, requiring confirmation.

The disadvantage is, that this way they would probably be trying to keep
the reason for retraction secret.
Those people would rarely talk about anything unasked ...
Not what we are used here in the forums.
Note also, that apparantly there is no forum at genbank
or WHO or CDC or such although it would be easy and reasonable to
attach a forum to these sites. secrecy....

When we mail to the submitter directly, we might get a reply
to questions - if not we could still send them to genbank.
We could make a list of "strange" sequences , or sequences which
generate questions, put it on a webpage,
searchable with google.

Hmm, there should already be such a webpage...
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Do you suggest that Genbank should be alerted to the presence of a sequence which has evidence of recombination/contamination, so that Genbank can challenge the submitting lab to either withdraw it, or stand by the submission and declare there was no contamination?
Please.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

The question of lab contamination is not appropriate in light of the recent acquisition of G743A on unique H5N1 in 4 different countries.

I suggest you focus on Africa's current sequence data to witness recombination--------"elegant evolution" in real time.
Go Ghana.
 
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