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A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Thanks for the link. Which sequences were resequenced? Following this thread:

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11309

You say that possibly henan/wu/2004 was a resequencing of henan/210/2004.
Am I missing what the others are?

For what it's worth, my belief is that the recombination is real. The evidence is very impressive. I was simply trying to understand why the Influenza field seems to be ignoring it. Lab contamination is the best objection I could come up with. I'm just looking for the most definitive way to refute it.

I'm curious -- if no one is making the argument of lab artifact, what could they possibly be saying? How do they argue against recombination?
All of the original sequences were resequenced, but the one you cited above has the most obvious recombination among the early set (there were many more in the expanded later set).

The denial in the influenza community is in three stages.

1. It can't be true.

2. Even if it is true, it can't be important.

3. We knew it all along.

Most of those in category 1 haven't looked at the data. Many of those who have looked at the data are in category 2. All very small number are in category 3, but that will change,
 
Last edited:
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

I'm not so fast...
Also internet problems today.

So, here are the Wisconsin pictures,
looks like there could be recombination in PB1 too ?

Also many changes and clustered mutations, 90% 3rd base in PB2.
The full sequences were submitted last year, this could mean
that there will be a paper in not too distant future about this ?!?


Code:
comparing the 8 segments of the 2 Turkey/Wisconsin/1/1966  strains

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comparing 5 HA-sequences of that Turkey:

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 4  0  2 
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comparing 5 NA-sequences of that Turkey, 3 of these are identical:

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 6  0  3 

 6  0  4 

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 6  3  4
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

I'm not so fast...
Also internet problems today.

So, here are the Wisconsin pictures,
looks like there could be recombination in PB1 too ?

Also many changes and clustered mutations, 90% 3rd base in PB2.
The full sequences were submitted last year, this could mean
that there will be a paper in not too distant future about this ?!?

Actually, there is a paper associated with the DQ turkey:

Virology. 2005 Sep 15;340(1):70-83.

Evolution of H9N2 influenza viruses from domestic poultry in Mainland China.

Li C, Yu K, Tian G, Yu D, Liu L, Jing B, Ping J, Chen H.

They submitted the sequences of a bunch of H9N2 viruses and the DQ turkey/Wisconsin/66. It's not a new lab-generated sequence. In fact, the CY turkey sequence was submitted later -- in the big 2006 Webster Science paper.

In this particular case, lab contamination seems to be the most economical explanation. Note that there is a sequence from the same submission -- chicken/Heilongjiang/35/00 -- whose NP is almost identical to the NP of turkey/Wisconsin/66, despite being 34 years later. Both that and the apparent recombination between identical strains could be explained by contamination.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

All of teh original sequences were resequenced, but the one you cited above has the most obvious recombination among the early set (there were many more in the expanded later set).

I'm probably missing something here. I still can't find which sequences were resequenced. Looking at the NCBI database, I don't see any of these Chinese H5N1 sequences that have the same name (like chicken/Henan/wu/2004 etc.) but different accession numbers. Can you give a specific example where the same strain was resequenced, and how you can tell that it is the same strain being resequenced?
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

I'm probably missing something here. I still can't find which sequences were resequenced. Looking at the NCBI database, I don't see any of these Chinese H5N1 sequences that have the same name (like chicken/Henan/wu/2004 etc.) but different accession numbers. Can you give a specific example where the same strain was resequenced, and how you can tell that it is the same strain being resequenced?
The names changed. One pair was described in the commentary. For most of the genes the sequences are identical. For one or more the difference is 1 BP.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

I'm probably missing something here. I still can't find which sequences were resequenced. Looking at the NCBI database, I don't see any of these Chinese H5N1 sequences that have the same name (like chicken/Henan/wu/2004 etc.) but different accession numbers. Can you give a specific example where the same strain was resequenced, and how you can tell that it is the same strain being resequenced?
If you look at the sequence and the sequencers, it is pretty obvious. I'm not sure why you seem to ask the same questions again and again. The answer was explained in the commentary, as well as my earlier comments on this thread.

The story is in the sequence and it is VERY obvious.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

The names changed. One pair was described in the commentary. For most of the genes the sequences are identical. For one or more the difference is 1 BP.

Hmm... so do you know that both sequences refer to the same sample, or are you just assuming it based on sequence identity?

I don't mean to harp on this, I'm just wondering if there is a way to tell from the database that something has been resequenced, other than guessing.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Hmm... so do you know that both sequences refer to the same sample, or are you just assuming it based on sequence identity?

I don't mean to harp on this, I'm just wondering if there is a way to tell from the database that something has been resequenced, other than guessing.
Please. If you don't want to look at the sequence, check out the definition of OBVIOUS (and guessing).
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Please. If you don't want to look at the sequence, check out the definition of OBVIOUS (and guessing).

OK. How is it obvious?

There are endless examples of definitely different samples, often submitted by the same lab, that are nearly identical in sequence. Obviously, strains circulating at the same time in the same place tend to be very close to each other. That's not the same thing as resequencing the same physical sample.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

OK. How is it obvious?

There are endless examples of definitely different samples, often submitted by the same lab, that are nearly identical in sequence. Obviously, strains circulating at the same time in the same place tend to be very close to each other. That's not the same thing as resequencing the same physical sample.
Please. All 8 gene segments have been submitted twice. The identity is OBVIOUS.

You have been told how to check the OBVIOUSNESS, yet instead of looking at the data, you continue to post comments that have little relevance. The sequences were resubmitted and the resubmissions are OBVIOUS.

Your comments have moved well into the annoying category.

If you want to argue the data, I suggest you look at the data. You should be able to quickly see that there is no argument.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

yes, A/Ck/Heilongyiang/35/2000(H9N2) is almost identical
to A/Turkey/WI/1966(H9N2) in HA and NP.

the CY-version obviously being the parent of both.
But are the segments handled separately in the Labs ?
Can they grow segments or only viruses ?

How could this "contamination" happen with HA,NP,PB2
from different strains ?

Maybe it's just a database error ..., the software made an error


Code:
                                        HA        NP
                                     
                                     0000000001 0000011 
                                     1225666792 6666935 
                                     4002348697 8889934 
                                     4578986601 4560151 
-codon-position---------------------- 1    21 2  12 1 2 
---Index-----------------------------AAGTAGACAC GAGAAAA 
  1 >A/Turkey/WI/1/66(H9N2),CY       .......... ....... 
  2 >A/Turkey/WI/1/66(H9N2),DQ       .G.G.T.T.. ATTTG.. 
  3 >A/Ck/Heilongjiang/35/00(H9N2)   G.A.G.G.GG .....GG
 
Last edited:
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

niman appears a bit unfriendly sometimes, that's normal ;-) ,
don't get irritated,provoked.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Please. All 8 gene segments have been submitted twice. The identity is OBVIOUS.

You have been told how to check the OBVIOUSNESS, yet instead of looking at the data, you continue to post comments that have little relevance. The sequences were resubmitted and the resubmissions are OBVIOUS.

Your comments have moved well into the annoying category.

If you want to argue the data, I suggest you look at the data. You should be able to quickly see that there is no argument.

I'm sorry -- the last thing I wanted was to be annoying!

I still don't understand what you mean by saying I should look at the data. I realize that all 8 segments in the two sequences are identical -- what more is there to look at? I just don't see why this means that it's a resubmission. There are many examples of physically distinct samples with identical sequences.

But this is certainly not a major issue, so if you find it annoying let's just let it go...
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Ok - The tones of this conversation are becoming unacceptable.

Any more of this and I will edit. :oops:
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

yes, A/Ck/Heilongyiang/35/2000(H9N2) is almost identical
to A/Turkey/WI/1966(H9N2) in HA and NP.

the CY-version obviously being the parent of both.
But are the segments handled separately in the Labs ?
Can they grow segments or only viruses ?

How could this "contamination" happen with HA,NP,PB2
from different strains ?

Maybe it's just a database error ..., the software made an error

To the best of my knowledge they can't grow segments -- just whole viruses. I believe that they pour the whole thing into different tubes, and then put a segment-specific primer into each tube for the PCR, which allows them to sequence just the segment they want from that tube.

I guess it's possible that different contaminants get poured into different tubes, so that when each segment is sequenced, you get a different combination of strains floating around there.

As you can probably tell, I'm not a lab person, so my knowledge of this is limited. If there is any lab person on the board, I'd love to get their input on this.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Mingus is a lab-person.
Also monotreme from another board, AFAIK.
Stephanie maybe too.
niman also has lab-contacts

we could formulate a question and I forward

or we ask the lab directly

or we send to genbank, and they sent a request to the lab for confirmation
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Here are a couple of comments on the issue of lab contamination. The one set of sequences that was noted in the commentary

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/10120601/H5N1_China_Evolution.html

had obvious recombination that was noted by the submitters, Beijing Genome Institute, in the title of the submission:

“A cohort of AIV H5N1 subtypes isolated from wild aquatic birds and domestic poultry revealed rapid transmission, frequent reassortment, and identifiable recombination events ” (emphasis added)

The "identifiable" recombination was quite obvious. These sequences were submitted on February 28, 2005 and released on February 28, 2006. The one set of sequences was A/chicken/Henan/210/2004. The same group released the same set of sequences in September, 2006, but used letters instead of numbers for the sample. Thus, the species, location, and date were the same, but the sample number was changed from a number to letters, so sample 210 above became wu as in A/chicken/Henan/wu/2004. The sequences of each of teh 8 gene segments from these two submissions were either identical, or differed by a single nucleotide, leaving no doubt that the second submission was a resequencing of the first submission.

The names on the two sets of submiters were similar and the submissions were from the same institute. All of the sequences from 2004 were resubmitted in 2006, which was obvious when sequences were compared (the sequences clearly matched and the differences were sample numbers - the later submissions all used letters, while the earlier submissions all used numbers).

However, although all of the above is quite obvious, the issue of contamination is addressed equally well by either scenario. If the isolate from the same sample was resequenced 1 1/2 years later and gave the same result, then the recombination was not due to contamination.

If all of the later submissions coincidentally all came from the same species from the same location, on the same date, and coincidentally all matched, then again the recombination was not due to contamination, because the same recombination was seen in both sets of sequences.

Thus, regardless of whether the identical recombination result came from sequencing of two isolates from the same sample or came from two isolates from idependent samples that coincidentally matched the species, location, and date (multiple times), the bottom line was the same - the reproduced recombination in the two sets of sequences was NOT due to contamination.
 
Last edited:
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

NAMRU-3 has set up a lab in Ghana.

When the Ghana sequence data is revealed, all questions about recombination will be
resolved, I believe.

Look at the Nigeria travel log on Dr. Niman's POSTS #23 and #26. I am afraid what the Ghana sequences will reveal:

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=78726#post78726

ISDN230945 A/Nigeria/6e/07 HA (4) 1660 2007 H5N1
EF165057 A/buzzard/Bavaria/13/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165049 A/buzzard/Bavaria/5/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165055 A/common buzzard/Bavaria/11/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF110519 A/common coot/Switzerland/V544/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165051 A/common pochard/Bavaria/7/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
AM403466 A/duck/Germany/R592/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
AM403467 A/duck/Germany/R603/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165054 A/eagle owl/Bavaria/10/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
AM403473 A/eagle owl/Germany/R1166/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165059 A/falcon/Bavaria/15/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
AM408211 A/falcon/Germany/R899/06 HA (4) 1654 2006 H5N1
EF165063 A/goldeneye duck/Bavaria/19/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165062 A/goosander/Bavaria/18/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165064 A/goosander/Bavaria/20/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF110518 A/goosander/Switzerland/V82/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
AM408212 A/great crested grebe/Germany/R1226/06 HA (4) 1654 2006 H5N1
AM408215 A/gull/Germany/R882/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
DQ458992 A/mallard/Bavaria/1/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
AM403465 A/pochard/Germany/R348/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165058 A/swan/Bavaria/14/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165060 A/swan/Bavaria/16/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165061 A/swan/Bavaria/17/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165065 A/swan/Bavaria/21/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165050 A/swan/Bavaria/6/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165048 A/tufted duck/Bavaria/4/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165052 A/tufted duck/Bavaria/8/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
EF165053 A/tufted duck/Bavaria/9/2006 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1
AM408216 A/tufted duck/Germany/R1240/06 HA (4) 1707 2006 H5N1

DQ095626 A/Chicken/Shantou/810/05 HA (4) 1693 2005 H5N1
ISDN208038 A/Duck/Pali/BBVW1358/2005 HA (4) 1705 2005 H5N1
DQ497673 A/duck/Vietnam/40/2004 HA (4) 1695 2004 H5N1
CY005735 A/duck/New Zealand/160/1976 HA (4) 1777 1976 H1N3


Note that the group above is the same group that had the NA G743A that appeared in Egypt and Moscow (and also had the first report of M230I in Qinghai H5N1)


http://www.recombinomics.com/phylo/HA_Phylogram.html
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

NAMRU-3 has set up a lab in Ghana.

When the Ghana sequence data is revealed, all questions about recombination will be
resolved, I believe.

Look at the Nigeria travel log on Dr. Niman's POSTS #23 and #26. I am afraid what the Ghana sequences will reveal:

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=78726#post78726
The questions were pretty much answerd by the simultaneous acquisition of NA G743A

http://www.recombinomics.com/phylo/NA_Phylogram.html

http://www.recombinomics.com/phylo/HA_Phylogram.html

Another example would just turn hand waving into arm waving.
 
Re: A question about recombination (could contamination be an issue?)

Mingus is a lab-person.
Also monotreme from another board, AFAIK.
Stephanie maybe too.
niman also has lab-contacts

we could formulate a question and I forward

or we ask the lab directly

or we send to genbank, and they sent a request to the lab for confirmation

Great! This is exactly what I was looking for.

For the sake of clarity, maybe we should focus on the Canadian pigs, since they are a very dramatic example, and you seem to have had some contact with Olsen already.

I would like to ask a number of questions:

1. Did their lab have the strains with long regions of sequence identity with the Canadian viruses, like Tennessee/24/77, Tennessee/26/77, NC/98, Korea/CY/02?

2. How likely is it that one of these strains could have contaminated the Canadian samples? What steps are taken to prevent this kind of contamination, and how is their effectiveness assessed?

3. The sequencing process. There is a series of steps: culturing, RNA extraction, reverse transcription, PCR and actual sequencing.
a. Are different segments sequenced from different tubes?
b. What primers are used for the PCR? Are they expected to amplify a whole segment, or do different primers at different ends of a segment amplify overlapping chunks of sequence?
c. How is the sequencing done: is the whole sequence obtained in one step, or are overlapping fragments put together to give a sequence for each segment? Would this be different for the longer and shorter segments?

4. If there is contamination, so that RNA's from two strains are present in the same tube, could this result in a sequence that looks like a recombinant? Would it make sense that the breaks occur at particular places (because of the PCR primers / sequencing fragments / some other reason?)

5. Would they be willing/able to check if contamination may have occurred, and/or resequence the isolates?

You can contact the lab directly or go through Genbank -- whichever is the best way to get an answer! Also, it would be great to forward this to the lab people on the board, and get their input.

I greatly appreciate this -- you've been very generous with your time and attention.
 
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