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Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

tropical

Well-known member
At BFBN, from RIA Novosti:
http://birdflubreakingnews.com/templates/birdflu/window.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.rian.ru%2Fanalysis%2F20080206%2F98571615.html

Yevgeny Kuznetsov is a leading scientist at the Wild Animal Protection Center.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=533 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=mainnewstitle vAlign=center>Who is spreading avian flu?

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom height=10>06/ 02/ 2008</I>

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MOSCOW. (Yevgeny Kuznetsov for RIA Novosti) - In the first month of 2008, avian flu caused by the H5N1 strain was registered at least in 12 countries - Israel, Vietnam, Britain, India, Iran, China, Egypt, Germany, Thailand, Turkey, Ukraine, and Bulgaria. Surprisingly, there have been no cases of avian flu in Russia, but there is a high risk of an outbreak in Russia's European South - the Krasnodar and Stavropol Territories.

This forecast is based on the fact that all cases of avian flu mentioned above were registered in places where birds spend their winters. There are such places in Russia's South as well. Almost all wild birds fly there from Siberia, a home to the majority of the waterfowl.

The H5N1 strain has revealed itself in Russia quite often (most recently last December), but this does not mean that it is being spread by wild birds from this hotbed. Wild birds rarely get sick, whereas poultry die in large numbers. Hence, the virus does not come from Russia.

Reports about causes of the flu outbreaks sound like a squabble of exhausted people - veterinarians blame wild birds for spreading the virus, whereas ornithologists deny this. Many officials from international organizations are siding with the latter.
More than 350,000 wild birds have been tested in Europe, and very few had traces of the dangerous virus. In the meantime, poultry is regularly killed by avian flu throughout the year. Migration is seasonal - in spring, birds fly to the North, and in the fall to the South. If wild birds carried the dangerous virus and infected poultry, both would be dying along migration routes. But this is not the case.

Moreover, the highly pathogenic virus or its antibodies were revealed in 748 wild birds in 2006 (February-May), while the relevant figure for 2007 (late June-early August) was 308. These are completely different pictures, and so far no one has come up with any explanations. But one conclusion suggests itself - the virus keeps changing, and its mutations are not linked with wild birds because nothing is happening in their populations.

The most logical conclusion stems from the location of the flu outbreaks - it is disseminated by poultry. Even if wild birds are spreading the virus, they are doing so at short distances. There is no limit to the distance for trade in poultry, products of poultry farming, or wild birds.

The main task is to improve the upkeep of poultry in small and large farms. When recent cases of avian flu were registered in Russia's Rostov Region, the local vets blamed them on wild birds. But it transpired during the inquiry that few farms kept poultry in isolated premises, or observed sanitary standards. Even if we assume that the virus was brought in by wild birds, the responsibility for the massive death of chickens at the poultry farms rests with those who failed to abide by sanitary and technical standards.

Instead of repairing chicken coops to isolate poultry from contact with wild birds, some poultry farms hire hunters to ward off the latter. Hunters are supposed to fire into the air from time to time to scare off unwanted guests, but hunters are much less effective than major poultry farm overhaul. Strict isolation and sanitary norms have made American poultry farming completely immune to avian flu.

There is a hypothesis that for the most part explains why wild birds die of avian flu at winter nesting areas. If the virus has already emerged in the environment, it persists there for a long time. Its pathogenic qualities become more pronounced during winter, when wilds birds have a hard time (in Europe and southern Russia). Stress, low temperatures, and lack of food reduce their immunity, and they are more likely to catch different diseases, including avian flu.

The dangerous H5N1 strain has been circulating for five years. This is an unprecedentedly long period, but the strain is still as active as before. It was revealed in domestic geese in China in 1996 for the first time. A year later, it killed poultry at farms and wholesale markets of Hong Kong. Since 2003, people started dying from it. All in all, 357 people have been infected with this strain in 14 countries (Azerbaijan, Cambodia, China, Djibouti, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Laos, Myanmar, Nigeria, Pakistan, Thailand, Turkey and Vietnam), and 255 died from it.

Will this highly stable and active strain become a killer of humans? This would be a sad turn of events because millions could die from it.
For the time being, this strain cannot easily penetrate human cells, and we do not know if it will develop this ability in the future. Hopefully, it will remain an avian rather than human virus.

Yevgeny Kuznetsov is a leading scientist at the Wild Animal Protection Center.
The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

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Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

in 2006 we had 3 different viruses in Europe.
So different, that none could have emerged from the other type
in the same season.

Now in 2007 we have still other types, not descending from the 2006 viruses
but from Krasnodar viruses.
BM 2007 was still different.

Seems that the virus is being re-introduced rather than surviving,persisting.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Well, I don't comment the doctor opinion, but:

gsgs
"Seems that the virus is being re-introduced rather than surviving,persisting."

It can survive, persist, and in the same time change "in situ".
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Comments from wild life "scientists" are quite similar. They use hocus pocus hand waving and negative data to make their case. The data out of DEFRA, which can't find H5N1 in the live healthy mute swan popultion, even though H5N1 has been detected in dead or dying mute swans there for over a month pretty much explains the 350,000 negative generate by the wild life groups.

The Krasnodar strain was isolated in September, 2007 and it was Uva Lake, tracing back to the Uva Lake outbreak in the summer of 2006, which went to Korea in late 2006, Kuwait in early 2007, Germany/ Czech Republic / France in the summer of 2007, Krasnodar in September, Poland in October, Romania and England in November, England again in December (as defined by REPORTED outbreaks). The only recent H5N1 in Europe that was not Uva Lake was Rostov.

The story on H5N1 clade 2.2 spread and evolution is VERY straight forward, posts on this thread notwithstanding.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Well, I don't comment the doctor opinion, but:

gsgs
"Seems that the virus is being re-introduced rather than surviving,persisting."

It can survive, persist, and in the same time change "in situ".


about 50 mutations per year.
If there are much more then we can conclude that it's not a descendant.
This works pretty well for the Qinghai strain.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Niman,
If I'm reading this article correctly, this scientist believes that wild birds can carry the disease and even transport it; but they are not the reservoir...chickens are. So I don't understand your comments
They use hocus pocus hand waving and negative data to make their case.
What is the benefit to them to make their case?

You also said
The data out of DEFRA, which can't find H5N1 in the live healthy mute swan popultion, even though H5N1 has been detected in dead or dying mute swans there for over a month pretty much explains the 350,000 negative generate by the wild life groups.
I think I've read that you believe the test they use is not sensitive enough? Is there only one type of test available?
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Niman,
If I'm reading this article correctly, this scientist believes that wild birds can carry the disease and even transport it; but they are not the reservoir...chickens are. So I don't understand your comments What is the benefit to them to make their case?

You also said
I think I've read that you believe the test they use is not sensitive enough? Is there only one type of test available?
I've covered these areas many times now, so I didn't go into detail, because going through these commentaries is like arguing politics or religion. They have nothing to do with science, and get repeated again and again, regardless of the amount of hard data. These papers almost always link to bird watcher or conservation groups who assume that all the wild birds will be culled if they are the reservoir for H5N1. The arguments are from the point of view of the host, not the virus, and they ignore the sequence data and rely on straw men and negative data. These are really propaganda pieces masquerading as science.

The arguments are founded on "dead birds don't fly" and "wild birds as victims". Dead birds don't fly indicates H5N1 infected wild birds are too sick to transport the virus. Wild birds as victims, hold that the poultry industry is the H5N1 reservoir which occasionally infect wild birds.

Both were eliminated back in 2005 when H5N1 started to spread out of Qinghai Lake in central China to Chany Lake in Russia (Siberia) and Erhel Lake in Mongolia. The presence of H5N1 in wild birds, especially the remote Erhel Lake eliminated dead birds don't fly. The presence of the Qinghai strain in wild birds eliminated wild birds as victims.

The assays that produce the 350,000 negatives use fecal matter as a source from healthy wild birds. This source would have the lowest level of virus, and the longer the sample sat around, he lower the level. There are a million ways to generate false negatives,so the real control on the testing is the results. I used the abysmal results at Weybridge to show the negatives in a wild bird population that is clearly H5N1 positive.

The sample can vary. The levels go from feces to cloacal swab, to throat swab, to tissue sample. The overall level goes from live healthy birds to dead decomposing birds, to live sick birds, to live birds near death, to dead birds that just died. The detection goes from isolation of virus to partial sequence, to PCR positive.

H5N1 in wild bird populations with sequences identical to poultry in regions where there are no reports of poultry are the best examples against wild birds as victims. In 2006 many countries had H5N1 in wild birds in the absence of poultry reports and the sequences represented independent introductions.

The bottom line is pretty simple. The wild birds are the resevoir. High density poultry can generate faster evolution, and this can get back into the wild bird population, but the transport and transmission over long distances is almost exclusively wild birds. Bernard Mathews in England was the exception that proves the rule.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

small amounts of viruses may survive and replicate in low doses
in some special organ or some special sort of cell or organella.
Without shedding.
And then they are reactivated later when the bird-metabolism changes
and they replicate in other organs,cells too and cause disease.

(?)
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

The meaning of human pandemic awareness by the web is also in disected the mass of research studies in plain words.

I think that the first part of the last Dr. Niman text sentence is correct:

"The bottom line is pretty simple. The wild birds are the resevoir. High density poultry can generate faster evolution, and this can get back into the wild bird population,"

The second also, if it point to intercontinental distances:
"but the transport and transmission over long distances is almost exclusively wild birds. Bernard Mathews in England was the exception that proves the rule."

But for country/regional distances is not the only reason, because in Asia,..., was published enaugh reports of how many illegal infected chicken meat was spreaded by smugglers, or even farmers (texts at FT).

Also, it is thrue that in many countries the birds (from 2005.), are not dying, even if the illness is spreading between them "long distance", nor the chickens along some migrations routes.
Y.K.: "... both would be dying along migration routes. But this is not the case. "

Even if parts of the Y.K. text was not precisely correct, some points stays steady:

no matter if the wild birds are the vector for distance spreading,
they are also (for now) many more robust than the poultry,
and if the poultry farms take the measures of:
"Strict isolation and sanitary norms"
the big farms will be probably spared - that's better than allowing the mingling and the subsequent devastating spreading by poultry means.

The well known problem is that such an effective isolation of poultry can not be done easy in "3 world" countries, because of many factors.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

I've covered these areas many times now, so I didn't go into detail, because going through these commentaries is like arguing politics or religion
Thank you for the summary; as less knowledgable people join/read this thread, it will be helpful to them as well.

I spent a fair amount of time at the GAINS site; and in reading through their quarterly report (44 pages), it seems to me there is much legitimate work going into wild bird surveillance and detection of AI. Therefore, I didn't understand the hocus pocus remark.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Thank you for the summary; as less knowledgable people join/read this thread, it will be helpful to them as well.

I spent a fair amount of time at the GAINS site; and in reading through their quarterly report (44 pages), it seems to me there is much legitimate work going into wild bird surveillance and detection of AI. Therefore, I didn't understand the hocus pocus remark.
The hocus pocus is easy to see. Scientists don't give negative data much weight, because there are a million ways to generate negative data. The bird watchers and conservation groups focus on the negatives (like the nonsense about the 350,000 negatives in wild birds), which are generated by techniques and asays that are known to be lacking (by their own data!).

Instead of focusing on the few positives they manage to find, they focus on the negatives.

The "hocus pocus" characterization is being kind.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

The GAINS project appears to have more than bird watchers and conservationists involved. Their list of contributors seems quite diverse and deserves a little more than such a dismissive attitude, imo. http://www.gains.org/tabid/102/Default.aspx

Or we can overlook all of the above and only concentrate on what the few(?) scientists in the groups have to say?
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

The GAINS project appears to have more than bird watchers and conservationists involved. Their list of contributors seems quite diverse and deserves a little more than such a dismissive attitude, imo. http://www.gains.org/tabid/102/Default.aspx

Or we can overlook all of the above and only concentrate on what the few(?) scientists in the groups have to say?
Same groups and same assays that don't work. Its just propaganda.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Poultry tests positive. I don't understand the difference in testing.

Are you saying they use bad tests to prove their position?
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Poultry tests positive. I don't understand the difference in testing.

Are you saying they use bad tests to prove their position?
I gave the run down on which samples produce the lowest levels. The failure to detect H5N1 in live birds in association with dead birds that are H5N1 positives shows that the test doesn't have the sensitivity to detect H5N1 in live birds, which is how the 350,000 negatives were generated on fecal samples from live healthy birds (its all propaganda - no science required).
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Thank you for your patience.

I'll go ponder for a while...
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

Thank you for your patience.

I'll go ponder for a while...
Here's a quick rundown from Mongolia in the summer of 2005, which pretty much sums up the whole story, which has been repeated again and again (including the 350,000 negatives).

In the spring of 2005 there was a massive die off at Qinghai Lake. The H5N1 was clade 2.2 and easily distinguished from earlier H5N1 clades and was called the Qinghai Lake strain. About 6000 birds died and 80% were bar headed geese. Bar headed geese are long range migratory birds that can fly 1000 miles in a day, so even if dead birds don't fly, they could move H5N1 1000 miles the first day they were infected, before there were any symptoms. Although it was possible that H5N1 would burn itself out, there were many birds that survived the initial outbreak, so burn out was unlikely.

That was confirmed in the summer at Chany Lake in Siberia. H5N1 arrive for the first time, the H5N1 was Qinghai, and the virus was isolated from a healthy grebe. That was pretty much game set match because H5N1 could clearly be transported long distances and no domestic poultry was required.

However, the real nail in the coffin was at Erhel Lake in Mongolia, also in the summer. In that outbreak conservation groups were "helping out" and their comments were quite revealing.

First they set up the massive die off straw man, saying that the dead wild birds at Erhel Lake didn't die from H5N1 because there were not enough dead bodies (there were about 80 dead birds).

When the dead birds tested positive for H5, they said it wouldn't be H5N1 because there were not enough dead birds.

When the birds tested positive for H5N1 (and subsequently Qinghai), they said Qinghai wouldn't be a problem because all of the live birds tested negative.

The negative data on the live wild birds at Erhel Lake left little doubt that the assay was garbage. It couldn't detect H5N1 in live birds at Erhel Lake, even though there was little doubt that H5N1 was present.

After it was clear that the negatives were false, the same conservation groups tested 350,000 fecal samples to declare wild birds free from H5N1.

It was utter nonsense, and as you can see, the same nonsense is being repeated today.

Weybridge is a re-run. Swans have been dying for well over a month at Dorset, and even under "enhanced" surveillance, Weybridge has identified ZERO healthy birds with H5N1.

It's ALL propaganda for a gullible public.
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

"Weybridge has identified ZERO healthy birds with H5N1"

ZERO healthy SWAN birds with H5N1
 
Re: Who is spreading avian flu? - scientist's opinion

"Weybridge has identified ZERO healthy birds with H5N1"

ZERO healthy SWAN birds with H5N1
ZERO H5N1 positives in healthy birds of any species. All dead or dying birds in Dorset that are H5N1 positive are mute swans.
 
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