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Canadians now believe that they are all Vit D deficient due to some major articles in the Globe and CMAJ, I believe.
I don't understand the "tank" concept. If the liver and kidney are demanding a source of the hormone for conversion, would not the daily intake be a sufficient source withouth the need for a full tank?
Answer: the daily requirement for vitamin D is estimated to be 3600 IU; thus, unless there is a reserve, a lower daily input is rapidly depleted.
How can one measure how full the tank is? How can one measure deficiency? I suggest going to www.grassrootshealth.org and going to the bottom where you will find "Join D-Action". For $40 US, you can order a kit with a lance and a piece of paper on which you can deposit 2 blood spots. They will be sent to ZRT Labs in Oregon for an accurate test using GCMS. You can also participate in a study of serum 25(OH)D levels and health outcomes. We are now recommending serum 25(OH)D levels be in the 40-60 ng/mL level; Canadians generally fall in the 25+/- ng/mL range. Thus, it would take 2000-3000 IU/day of vitamin D3 to reach the optimal levels.
When gas tanks are overfilled, the car gets messy and stinky. So how does the body spill the excess amounts and are there any messy side effects? Vitamin D and 25(OH)D have a 4-6 week half life in the body; adverse effects generally start at levels of 25(OH)D well over 100 ng/mL and are generally due to hypercalcemia. Those with sarcoidosis and granulomous diseases produce too much 1,25(OH)2D3 in the serum, so should limit their intake.
Associations are not proof, but the level of the association, and separately whether or not that level could reasonably have arisen by chance, can be a major piece of evidence for decision making. So what is the stregth of the association? In my study, the adjusted r-square was over 0.7, i.e., more than 70% of the variance was explained by summer or wintertime UVB doses.
If D is synthesized when a person is exposed to sunlight, could not dosage + sunlight could produce a whopping amount? In England, 45-year olds make about 1000-1500 IU/day in summer through casual exposure. That is not a whopping amount. However, full body exposure in summer can produce 10,000 IU per day.
J.
I've included my responses in the quote and used red.
Thank you Dr. Grant for taking your time to answer our questions about this very important subject.
.
"The next major advancement in the health of American people will be determined by what the individual is willing to do for himself"-- John Knowles, Former President of the Rockefeller Foundation
Perhaps we could do a poll of our own members and find out who was taking Vitamin D supplements and whether symptoms were severe or indeed if they caught the flu at all.
"The only security we have is our ability to adapt."
snow hope said "So far all 5 (adult) members of my family are taking one Vitamin C tablet (500mg) per day and I will add a Vitamin D2 source of 1000-2000 iu per day as well. I consider these to be sensible precautions alongside other preps."
Dr. Linus Pauling suggested 2 to 10 grams per day in divided doses of calcium ascorbate. Start with a couple of grams and back off one gram when diarrhea strikes. This varies for each individual. He used a lab that provides C in crystal form which is far cheaper than tablets and no worry about binders. However, 500 mg per day or half a gram is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
Perhaps we could do a poll of our own members and find out who was taking Vitamin D supplements and whether symptoms were severe or indeed if they caught the flu at all.
1st I would like to say that this has been an amazingly informative thread - and I definitely think that some study should be devoted to this.
2nd, My story is actually the 1st story listed in Niman's Thread about Member Symptoms (Can't find it - can't remember exact name). Don't know if I included this - but my wife is sort of a research freak on homeopathic and natural cures. I forwarded her this thread, and she just told me something I didn't know. When my son and I became ill - she was just tailing up about 3 weeks of taking Vitamin D Supplements & Ginseng. She's adamant I include that Ginseng part She is also adamant about my including the fact she took higher doses of C than normal.
She was covered in the virus between me and my 5 year old exposing her. Yet she had little to no obvious symptoms. She felt a little more nauseous, slight headache, and was more tired - but other than that you wouldn't know she had the flu.
I will say that at the time I thought it pretty darn miraculous that she didn't catch what we had - which to this day I am convinced was an early wave of H1N1 (mid April I think?)
Anyway - can't determine anything from this really - but it is ONE sample. For the record she was only taking 200 - 400iu supplement through Calcium tablets - but it was an abnormal fact for her to even be taking that. Which is why she remembers it so clearly. She's one of these human guinea pigs - always testing
I wish to thank Dr. Grant for being so kind to visit this thread but since he is already a member of the FT community, why shouldn't he.
Anyway it is pretty great to have the author of a contemporary paper of such potential import partcipate with us in the discussion.
I recall recently gsgs making a comment on how discussions like this could become a replacement or supplement to the peer review process. While I think he is right about the significance of discussing issues like this in a public forum open to all is a terrific idea, it does not replace the peer review process.
What the peer review process amounts to is the requirement of the author to run his paper past an editor initially then a set of reviewers who are chosen by the editor usually but not always because they have demonstrated expertize in the topic presented in the scholarly article.
At any rate I can attest to what a long and arguous task this can be and one that for me at least has not always resulted in success.
In summary then, what a pleasure to have Dr. Grant share his views and insights on this very interesting and topical issue. My hat is off to you and your collaborators.
Another interesting statistic was the flu patients who were sequestered in canvas tents in New York during the 1918 pandemic, had a much better chance of surviving than did those who found room in the hospital wards. Whether this was due to vitamin D finding its way thorough the woven tent or for some other reason is unknown but, it is an interesting hypothesis.
I've read this entire thread, and it does seem that there is a very strong correlation here. And then a thought popped into my head - perhaps part of the "holy grail" answer as to why Flu Spreads Seasonally.
Could a part of it simply be sunlight / D related?
It does fit as a solid part of the facts equation.
Perhaps officials should add that into their research charts / questions.....
In all cases, track lifestyle patterns that could indicate greater or less sunshine exposure / D intake.
I've read this entire thread, and it does seem that there is a very strong correlation here. And then a thought popped into my head - perhaps part of the "holy grail" answer as to why Flu Spreads Seasonally.
Could a part of it simply be sunlight / D related?
It does fit as a solid part of the facts equation.
Perhaps officials should add that into their research charts / questions.....
In all cases, track lifestyle patterns that could indicate greater or less sunshine exposure / D intake.
That is an interesting suggestion. As I would interpret what you are saying is during the winter months when sunshine exposure is lower, this would be predicted to result in lower winter vitamin D levels compared with those in the summer.
The lower levels of vitamin D during this time would result in an immune system "fitness penalty" to borrow from our influenza lexicon.
This would make humans as a group more susceptible to influenza and other infections resulting in them having a higher incidence during this season of the year than in others.
Anyway, I like it big guy. I agree with you too that it probably is "one of the reasons"l
More importantly IMO it is one of the things we can do something about. Something that is not costly, is widely available both for free (sunlight) or at modest cost (OTC Vit D2 and D3. Vitamin D obtained in these ways has a low potential for toxicity even when take in doses many times the RDA.
All these factors have positive influences from both a health risk vs health benefit and a cost vs benefit prospective.
In 1981, R. Edgar Hope-Simpson proposed that a 'seasonal stimulus' intimately associated with solar radiation explained the remarkable seasonality of epidemic influenza. Solar radiation triggers robust seasonal vitamin D production in the skin; vitamin D deficiency is common in the winter, and activated vitamin D, 1,25(OH)2D, a steroid hormone, has profound effects on human immunity. 1,25(OH)2D acts as an immune system modulator, preventing excessive expression of inflammatory cytokines and increasing the 'oxidative burst' potential of macrophages. Perhaps most importantly, it dramatically stimulates the expression of potent anti-microbial peptides, which exist in neutrophils, monocytes, natural killer cells, and in epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract where they play a major role in protecting the lung from infection. Volunteers inoculated with live attenuated influenza virus are more likely to develop fever and serological evidence of an immune response in the winter. Vitamin D deficiency predisposes children to respiratory infections. Ultraviolet radiation (either from artificial sources or from sunlight) reduces the incidence of viral respiratory infections, as does cod liver oil (which contains vitamin D). An interventional study showed that vitamin D reduces the incidence of respiratory infections in children. We conclude that vitamin D, or lack of it, may be Hope-Simpson's 'seasonal stimulus'.
Thanks Doc. And I wanted to comment on Dr. Grant's paper I just downloaded and reviewed - which also pretty much directly makes these observations as well (I just got lucky - but this guy has the data!). Dr. Grant has it posted online at the following page.....
Taylor & Francis publishes knowledge and specialty research spanning humanities, social sciences, science and technology, engineering, medicine and healthcare.
You have to log in (free) to read it, but I've downloaded it and attached it to this post in a PDF. It really is good reading. Dr. Grant you write well for a science guy - you folks normally lose me a few words in LOL
Anyway - a very good read.
And in regards to St Michaels link above - VERY informative and thought provoking as well.
I agree with Doc - this is something that is exciting - because WE CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!
I think this whole subject is grounds for an informational press release.
Cartski asked:
"How can one measure how full the tank is? How can one measure deficiency?"
As suggested by other posters, the best way to do this is by checking the 25 hydroxyvitamin D3 level AKA 25 OH vit D3. While indirect, it is the easiest and least costly way to measure tissue stores of vitamin D2.
What is interesting about this relationship is that it is exponential rather than linear. This means that a 25 OH vit D3 level of 20ng indicates a level of stored vitamin D2 that is 10 times higher than a 25 OH vit D3 level of 10ng.
So this means that a bone healthy 25OH Vit D3 level between 50 ng and 60ng means that the vitamin D2 present in storage is about 500,000 times as great as that present when the vitamin D2 level is 10ng.
The reason for this is that vitamin D2 found in the circulation is rather quickly scoffed up by the fat tissue when it is in excess of need. This results in a short serum half-life but a long tissue half-life. The fat tissue preserves the vitamin D2, keeping it fresh. When needed in the future, vitamin D2 is released into the blood where it is converted via several steps to 25 OH vit D3.
I think vitamin D3 might be more accurately seen as an intermediate pre-hormone metabolite that can be produced via UV light or via conversion of Vitamin D2 to D3.
Once vitamin D3 is formed, it appears to rapidly be converted by the liver to 25 OH vit D3. So it too has a short half-life.
I don't recall the half-life of 25 OH Vit D3, maybe someone can chime in here.
PS.... I still suggest everyone read attached PDF, and check out story in Epidemic Influenza And Vitamin D.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf VitaminD-CytokinePaper.pdf (645.1 KB, 0 views)
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Thank you for the link Mountainsvoice and Dr Grant for the paper, obviously. Extremely interesting reading. Does Vitamin D have an effect on the bacterial load then?
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She is also adamant about my including the fact she took higher doses of C than normal.
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