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_|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

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  • #16
    _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

    Virologist Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic
    by Anthony L. Kimery
    Monday, 30 June 2008

    But companies need to have 'a designated person on the staff skilled in flu diagnosis'

    F. Hoffmann-La Roche, the manufacturer of the antiviral Tamiflu, announced it has launched a program under which US companies can stockpile supplies of the drug in preparation for distribution to employees in the event of a pandemic.

    The move comes on the heels of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) having told HSToday.us is wrongheaded.

    Laver played a key role in the development of both drugs as well as in having found the link between human flu and bird flu.

    Laver told HSToday.us that Roche?s program is a good idea, but ?only [if companies who stockpile Tamiflu] hand out [the antiviral] to people who test positive for influenza.?

    ?Stockpiles by large companies seem to be a very good thing to do.,? Laver said, adding, ?these should be used both in seasonal flu and in a pandemic when one comes along. Such a procedure should be put in place now to deal with next year's flu in the US.?

    But Laver said companies should not make the drug available prophylactically. ?It should only be dispensed if employees test positive for influenza ? that is why large companies should have a person or persons specially trained in flu diagnostics.?

    Laver earlier told HSToday.us that HHS?s proposed plan to use Tamilfu prophylactically is wrongheaded.

    ?Prophylaxis with Tamiflu in a pandemic is wrong. Early treatment is the only way to go,? Laver said, as have numerous other authorities, as HSToday.us previously reported.

    Laver explained that it is ?much better to use Tamiflu only for early treatment. If people with flu symptoms take Tamiflu immediately, say within six or so hours after symptom onset, the infection should be rapidly terminated, the person should recover, and then, and this is important, should then be immune to reinfection for the rest of the pandemic.?

    But ?as soon as prophylaxis is stopped,? Laver said, ?the person taking Tamiflu is just as susceptible to infection as before. Early treatment would be so much better.?

    Laver advocates the dispensing of Tamiflu through company programs like Roche is supporting, as well as making Tamiflu ?available over-the-counter [OTC] in pharmacies ? where flu victims can get it without the time-wasting need to first get a prescription from a doctor. There is no need for a prescription and the time taken to get one can render Tamiflu pretty well useless.?

    Of course, Laver stated, the pharmaceutical ?community would [need to] be ?trained? in the correct use of these drugs in the event of a pandemic.

    It would be ?much better to hold stocks of the drugs in every pharmacy in the country where it can be got quickly after diagnosis by a trained pharmacist or other health care worker.?

    Laver said using a rapid flu test to assist such a diagnosis ?so that people who think they have the flu can be properly diagnosed quickly and take the drugs very soon after symptom onset. This rapid procedure of ?test and treat? would mean that the infection should be immediately terminated and the flu victim experience a quick recovery.?

    ?If companies and other institutions too, like schools, universities, and so on had their own stockpiles of Tamiflu and had a designated person on the staff skilled in flu diagnosis, maybe using a fast flu test, members of staff or students or whatever could be rapidly diagnosed and given or denied Tamiflu depending on the diagnosis. Just imagine how much illness this would prevent??

    Laver said ?this procedure should be adopted now, so that the community would become familiar with this ?test and treat? way of dealing with influenza and if a pandemic should suddenly erupt, everyone would [or should] know what to do.?

    Addressing the issue of false negatives from a business?s diagnosing its employees, Laver said, ?imagine, if ten people with flu turn up to be tested, seven test positive and get Tamiflu and three test negative, even though they have flu, and are denied Tamiflu. The result is that seven people benefit greatly and the unfortunate three with false negatives will be no worse off than they were previously when there were no fast tests, no Tamiflu and nothing they could do except take chicken soup and go to bed. Meanwhile, seven people would benefit from the treatment. Doesn't that make sense? And these fast flu tests are getting better all the time, so it really does seem to be the way to go.?

    While some authorities have raised concerns about the efficacy of Tamiflu, Laver told HSToday.us that ?there is lots of published evidence that Tamiflu and Relenza are effective in both flu treatment and flu prophylaxis if used correctly. Some of the people who deny this make bizarre statements such as ?Tamiflu has no effect on flu-like illness!? Of course not, it is only good for true influenza.?

    ?Also,? Laver said, ?it is often stated that the duration of illness is only reduced by one to two days. This is nonsense, if the drug is taken very soon after infection, then the reduction in illness may be five or six days or better.

    To work, Tamiflu must be taken in proper doses within six to 12 hours after onset of symptoms.

    "Forty-eight hours is about the limit the drug is effective," Laver said.
    Laver said ?there are also statements that Tamiflu reduces flu symptoms,? but ?cold and flu tablets do that; Tamiflu targets and disables (kills) the virus directly.

    Tamiflu works by blocking the action of the neuraminidase (NA) enzyme on the surface of the virus. When neuraminidase is inhibited, the spread of the virus to other cells in the body is inhibited.

    ?I believe that in most of the human H5N1 bird flu cases that died despite having been given Tamiflu, the drug was given far too late after infection to be effective,? Laver continued. ?It needs to be taken early to stop the virus replicating. It seems that people who die from flu do not die from the virus directly, but as a result of the damage the virus does to the body. This damage results in a ?cytokine storm? released by the body's immune system, and so the earlier the virus is killed the better.?

    H5N1 upsets the chemical messengers that regulate immune function in a healthy, vigorous immune system. These chemical messengers activate an inordinate number of immune cells - a ?cytokine storm? - which causes pervasive inflammation and eventual death if not promptly treated with antiviral drugs.

    According to a team led by Menno de Jong of the Oxford University Clinical Research Unit in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, ?the focus of clinical management should be on preventing this intense cytokine response by early diagnosis and effective antiviral treatment.?

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    • #17
      Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

      merge with this:
      I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
      my current links: http://bit.ly/hFI7H ILI-charts: http://bit.ly/CcRgT

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

        For me this is the key part of this article.
        “Also,” Laver said, “it is often stated that the duration of illness is only reduced by one to two days. This is nonsense, if the drug is taken very soon after infection, then the reduction in illness may be five or six days or better.

        To work, Tamiflu must be taken in proper doses within six to 12 hours after onset of symptoms.

        "Forty-eight hours is about the limit the drug is effective," Laver said.
        Neuraminidase inhibitors (Tamiflu, Relenza, Peramivir) do not prevent the flu virus entering the cell but do aim to block the release of newly created virons, so infecting more of the hosts cells and potentially new hosts. The key to effective use is to keep viron numbers down and buy the hosts immune system time to mount its own defenses. The earlier you can detect infection and get the drug into the system the more effective it will be. This model makes it an effective prophylactic and progressively less effective as an aid to the immune response the longer the you wait to get it into your system. The 48hrs on the packet is a measure of when it becomes ineffective due to being swamped by the rate of viral replication but as the drug does not block infection but slows its spread every hour counts.
        Most countries with the wealth to stockpile these drugs have not – IMO – taken this MO sufficiently into account. Too much time will be wasted between symptom onset and taking the first tablet in all the plans I have seen. Many of these plans compound the problem by asking the sick, or their relatives, to collect from a pharmacy or similar. If an individual enters a house hold and infects one member there is a good chance they also infected others which means the designated collector, for the first to show symptoms, is likely to be in influenzas pre-symptomatic infectious phase endangering everyone they encounter while out Tamiflu shopping.
        At present – in a pre-pandemic phase – we have a problem that real human H5N1 cases are so rare that the symptoms are likely to be misdiagnosed as another more common illness with similar symptoms. If a pandemic starts – particularly if clinically more severe than season flu – it is unlikely anyone is going to have a big problem with self diagnosis, every TV and radio station is going to have wall-to-wall pandemic coverage.
        Having identified the problem what I suggest as a solution is that we now get Roche to produce a Tamiflu ‘sample pack’ with only two or three Tamiflu tablets in it. These should be mailed to every address in the country with storage instruction and a ‘not to be opened until instructed message’. Once the pandemic is announced the media would explain the symptoms of the early cases and instruct house holders to call the number on the pack if they think they may have an ill household member. If the call center agreed the symptoms were likely to be pan-flu then one tablet would be taken immediately and additional full courses would be posted out with detailed home care instructions.
        Tamiflu in the system from hour one, no contacts, small household stocks so little danger of attempts at self prophylaxis, opportunity to adjust plans once the pandemic is underway and virulence and symptoms are better understood.

        Under current plans the effectiveness of the Tamiflu stock pile will be diminished and the later start of the course will greatly accelerate the spread of polymorphisms that confer resistance as there will be so many more virons in the host's system before the drug begins to act.

        Agreed
        <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

          the 1-2 days is what you get from the papers !

          I'm not sure that prophylactic Tamiflu won't induce immunity against
          the early defeated virus. Non-symptomatic illness also induces
          immunity.

          When time is so important (H5N1 is slower than normal flu), then
          post-exposure prophylaxis should be the method of choice.
          The virus needs 6-10 hours for one replication cycle,
          so I assume 5 hours after supposed exposure would be the
          optimal time to start NI-treatment.
          Then maybe there are "waves" every 8 hours, for the replication cycles,
          I'm not sure.
          I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
          my current links: http://bit.ly/hFI7H ILI-charts: http://bit.ly/CcRgT

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

            Originally posted by gsgs View Post
            I'm not sure that prophylactic Tamiflu won't induce immunity against
            the early defeated virus. Non-symptomatic illness also induces
            immunity.
            In the case of prophylactic use I suppose if it is not wholly effective at stopping virons leaving the cell then the immune system may start producing antigen specific B cell and anti-bodies. Even if these are in small quantaties they should help prime the immune response should the host be re-exposed.
            When time is so important (H5N1 is slower than normal flu), then
            post-exposure prophylaxis should be the method of choice.
            I am not sure what you mean by "H5N1 is slower than normal flu" but at present this is an AI virus so not optimised for infection of mammalian cell. I would expect it to improve this ability very quickly once reproducing successfully in mammals. Re post-exposure use I wonder if you felt you could not avoid exposure if a small deliberate viral load followed by timed Tamiflu hit might be a good way of priming the system. Any volunteers?
            Last edited by JJackson; July 1, 2008, 10:28 AM. Reason: typo

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

              Threads merged. Thanks everyone.

              Also see this thread:

              Hoffman-La Roche and HHS Announce Tamiflu Program for Corporations

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

                Originally posted by JJackson View Post
                In the case of prophylactic use I suppose if it is not wholly effective at stopping virons leaving the cell then the immune system may start producing antigen specific B cell and anti-bodies. Even if these are in small quantaties they should help prime the immune response should the host be re-exposed.

                I am not sure what you mean by "H5N1 is slower than normal flu" but at present this is an AI virus so not optimised for infection of mammalian cell. I would expect it to improve this ability very quickly once reproducing successfully in mammals. Re post-exposure use I wonder if you felt you could not avoid exposure if a small deliberate viral load followed by timed Tamiflu fit might be a good way of priming the system. Any volunteers?
                But Tamiflu doesn't stop initial virions' cell entry, but virions' release from infected cell...
                A certain level of viral load happens anyway even with prophylaxis use.
                A low-level infections may result with antibody response, as the drug isn't effective at 100 per cent even in prophylaxis regimen.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

                  H5N1 is slower in that the incubation time is longer, peak shedding is later and treatment
                  with Tamiflu was effective, even when started late.

                  Volunteeers : mice,ferrets,chicken,swine first ! Then use mild strains...
                  It should have been tested already : do Tamiflu treated people develope the same
                  titers as non-treated flu-sick people ?
                  What about PEP ?
                  I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
                  my current links: http://bit.ly/hFI7H ILI-charts: http://bit.ly/CcRgT

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

                    Originally posted by ironorehopper View Post
                    But Tamiflu doesn't stop initial virions' cell entry, but virions' release from infected cell...
                    A certain level of viral load happens anyway even with prophylaxis use.
                    A low-level infections may result with antibody response, as the drug isn't effective at 100 per cent even in prophylaxis regimen.
                    Yes I agree. That is what I was trying to say. I am sorry if I was not very clear.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

                      Originally posted by JJackson View Post
                      Yes I agree. That is what I was trying to say. I am sorry if I was not very clear.
                      Oh, Your texts is clear. I am sometimes a bit redundant....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: _|Virologist [G. Laver] Endorses Plan to Help Business Stockpile Tamiflu, But Not as Prophylactic|_

                        I'm glad to see that some illogical things in the anti-virus action becomes visible, and was aported some policy changings even from the drugs cofinder prof. Laver point of view.

                        All the biological points of view of prof. Laver can be condivided (cong. to his work/efforts).

                        But the social/work./staff arrangements wroted to be the ways that will resolve the main question of an very early administration of the antiviral (6-12 hours after the onset) to the mass of pandemic infected peoples is unfortunately the big weak link of such type of antiviral policy.

                        The main non-biological problems which will appear in such frangents, was well wroted in the #8 post of this thread.

                        Dr. Laver in his newest news release tried to mitigate and resolve the above problems.
                        Decentralizated points of distribution with an (or more) dedicated staff to assure the state of the illness by rapid tests can be done for the persons quarantined in such places, or be at the site when somebody exibit an flu illness.
                        But thinking that all this various working, and teaching places, will be "in time - 12 hours give the antiviral", and that such centers would be trained eficiently now, IMO it is a little bit unreal.

                        Even if some very disciplinated, good organized, and trained country could do this, and be fully prepared before the pandemic starts, that will be impossible for the vast majority of under-developed countries.

                        As JJ, and we all detect, the early (now not 2 days, half a day) antiviral use is the main problem here.

                        Because of it the WHO guid. after 05., and prior the last year poping Tam. resistant cases suggest an possible antiviral prophilactic need during an period of 1-2 months (the first main vawe punching priod).

                        Swallowing even 2 boxes of antivirals is not an peace of cake.
                        Doing it 1, or 2 months is heroic, indeed, and it can change the strain.

                        But even acknowledging this, and straying onto the opinion that no prophilactic use is the better thing to do, this logic would probably fail in their technical exibition.

                        From the illnessed patient point of view, looking at the "treat, not try to prevent" option, it's easy to compare with other illness (diferent microbes) with dual option: malaria - no proph. use of meds in the malaria zone, aids - no use of prophilactic, polio - no vacc., etc.

                        Switching back to prophilactic use possibility - maybe every town health estab. would inform it's population when are registered enaugh cases (they would be the first unfort. "canarians") to proclamate the start of an prophilactic use for all - but that would means that the town have antivirals for all.

                        Even if the global guidel., changes, and it will be no antivir. proph., the "real-time use" must be solved.

                        Seems to be much more easier, more anti-spreading, and logisticaly better, to concentrate the efforts on how to construct an more "black-box" hyper-easy test, which can be driven by any layperson at home, or at the office, at the same moment the person felt an flu-like simptom, than the person take it's stock of antiviral, or got it from the office/factory/health in the best needed schedule of 6 hours.

                        Virtual worlds, flying to the moon, floating under our heads, sniffing Mars, and such an black box tester can't be done?
                        No way it can't!

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