46 yr old man said his antibodies were 'high' after natural COVID infection, but were 'just barely positive' after vaccination

[Emily]

His interview is here. https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/...reases-testing Can anyone point to any published studies that examine how antibodies and immunity are affected when a naturally infected, recovered person gets vaccinated?

[Emily]

I'm concerned that some outlets are discouraging vaccinated people from testing antibodies, whether they previously had COVID or not.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/after-fully-vaccinated-father-dies-of-covid-19-family-hopes-story-raises-awareness/2500933/

After Fully-Vaccinated Father Dies of COVID-19, Family Hopes Story Raises Awareness
"It's just extremely sad and, you know, everybody does a what if," Bonnie Sporn, daughter of Alan Sporn, said. "So we're trying to help people with their what ifs"
Published May 3, 2021 • Updated on May 3, 2021 at 8:13 pm
...
"He had eight antibodies," Bonnie Sporn said. "And you're supposed to have thousands of [antibodies]. You know after you get your second vaccine, it should show up in your system."

One week later, on March 29, Sporn died. The Cook County Medical Examiner's office listed his primary cause of death as pneumonia caused by the novel coronavirus.

"We feel that if he were given an antibody test when he found out he had COVID it would have alerted us to his low antibody count, and we wouldn't have let him drive home," Bonnie Sporn said. "We would have been, you know, either send him straight to the hospital or at least monitor him."

[Emily]

Here's a small study done on the Pfizer vaccine and they didn't see a loss of antibodies in previously infected vaccinees. The man that lost his antibodies after vaccination didn't say what vaccine he had in the interview, or at least the news source edited it out.

This study did report that waiting 3 months after previous infection to vaccinate gave a better response than earlier vaccination. My state's public health director said her husband had natural COVID infection, and they waited 3 months for him to be vaccinated and he was fine. (Some doctors had concerns that vaccinating too soon after natural infection could result in severe side effects.) Maybe she was aware of this research.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2103825

[Gert van der Hoek]

Here is some information (June 30) from BMJ :

Many questions remain about both natural and vaccine induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2. Chris Baraniuk reviews what we know so far

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1605

Immunity after natural infection superior to immunity after vaccination? From Nature: Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

[tetano]

More than one year after its inception, the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) remains difficult to control despite the availability of several working vaccines. Progress in controlling the pandemic is slowed by the emergence of variants that appear to be more transmissible and more resistant to antibodies^1,2. Here we report on a cohort of 63 individuals who have recovered from COVID-19 assessed at 1.3, 6.2 and 12 months after SARS-CoV-2 infection, 41% of whom also received mRNA vaccines^3,4. In the absence of vaccination, antibody reactivity to the receptor binding domain (RBD) of SARS-CoV-2, neutralizing activity and the number of RBD-specific memory B cells remain relatively stable between 6 and 12 months after infection. Vaccination increases all components of the humoral response and, as expected, results in serum neutralizing activities against variants of concern similar to or greater than the neutralizing activity against the original Wuhan Hu-1 strain achieved by vaccination of naive individuals^2,5,6,7,8. The mechanism underlying these broad-based responses involves ongoing antibody somatic mutation, memory B cell clonal turnover and development of monoclonal antibodies that are exceptionally resistant to SARS-CoV-2 RBD mutations, including those found in the variants of concern^4,9. In addition, B cell clones expressing broad and potent antibodies are selectively retained in the repertoire over time and expand markedly after vaccination. The data suggest that immunity in convalescent individuals will be very long lasting and that convalescent individuals who receive available mRNA vaccines will produce antibodies and memory B cells that should be protective against circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9?fbclid=IwAR1p-QrUN2P-am6Hb3DPc-EMTqjmpxkZRjfluBEkqKgi8idJSydzGzOURWM

[Emily]

Thanks Gert and Tetano, very interesting articles. Tetano's adds to the study in post 3 supporting that vaccination a reasonable time after infection increases immune cell counts when using the mRNA vaccines. Can't imagine what happened to the man in the news story. Maybe he got another type of vaccine or it was just a false negative.

At least a false negative won't kill you. You'll just be very cautious until you can explore further.

[sharon sanders]

bump this

[Emily]

This research indicates to me that the immunity from natural infection is adequate without later vaccination and at least as flexible when it comes to future variants. If quantitative antibody testing of recovered patients were being done to find (likely rare) cases of poor immune response, then subsequent vaccination might be scientifically sound. In the case of what is currently being practiced, I think the vaccines are just trying to hitch their wagon to a star.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03207-w#citeas

Evolution of antibody immunity to SARS-CoV-2
Gaebler, C., Wang, Z., Lorenzi, J.C.C. et al. Evolution of antibody immunity to SARS-CoV-2. Nature 591, 639–644 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-021-03207-w

...
Memory B cells display clonal turnover after 6.2 months, and the antibodies that they express have greater somatic hypermutation, resistance to RBD mutations and increased potency, indicative of continued evolution of the humoral response. Immunofluorescence and PCR analyses of intestinal biopsies obtained from asymptomatic individuals at 4 months after the onset of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) revealed the persistence of SARS-CoV-2 nucleic acids and immunoreactivity in the small bowel of 7 out of 14 individuals. We conclude that the memory B cell response to SARS-CoV-2 evolves between 1.3 and 6.2 months after infection in a manner that is consistent with antigen persistence.

[sharon sanders]

This research indicates to me that the immunity from natural infection is adequate without later vaccination and at least as flexible when it comes to future variants. If quantitative antibody testing of recovered patients were being done to find (likely rare) cases of poor immune response, then subsequent vaccination might be scientifically sound. In the case of what is currently being practiced, I think the vaccines are just trying to hitch their wagon to a star.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03207-w#citeas

Evolution of antibody immunity to SARS-CoV-2
Gaebler, C., Wang, Z., Lorenzi, J.C.C. et al. Evolution of antibody immunity to SARS-CoV-2. Nature 591, 639–644 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-021-03207-w

...
Memory B cells display clonal turnover after 6.2 months, and the antibodies that they express have greater somatic hypermutation, resistance to RBD mutations and increased potency, indicative of continued evolution of the humoral response. Immunofluorescence and PCR analyses of intestinal biopsies obtained from asymptomatic individuals at 4 months after the onset of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) revealed the persistence of SARS-CoV-2 nucleic acids and immunoreactivity in the small bowel of 7 out of 14 individuals. We conclude that the memory B cell response to SARS-CoV-2 evolves between 1.3 and 6.2 months after infection in a manner that is consistent with antigen persistence.

THIS IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE:

I think we still do not know much. I would not take any one study on anything to make any medical decision. I am a big supporter of natural immunity but I think we still do not know how long this lasts. The vaccines are a big disappointment in this area. 6 - 8 months apparently?

I am fully vaccinated because I decided for me that my risk of a new vaccine was lower than my risk of developing serious complications or death from COVID-19. Also, I wanted to buy more time to see if some effective therapeutics were discovered/developed. These goals were accomplished.

Now I am looking around to see what to do next for myself. There is a vaccine booster, antibodies, some natural substances, masks, social distancing, other pharma and OTC items. It seems a big mix of various options. But at least I am still here 20 months later.

This situation is fluid. You have to stay informed. Use at least 2 sources.

Do not take medical advice from the internet. If you have any medical questions, consult your medical practitioner.

[Emily]

Sharon, every study I read finds that recovered COVID patients have immunity at least as good as the vaccinated in general. Individual results could vary in both cases, of course. There is no scientific reason to discriminate against naturally immune citizens as far as access to travel and activities or to force them to be vaccinated to have a job so they can maintain access to food and shelter. I do know this is wrong and not just morally. I don't even believe it is right to discriminate against any person because they might be capable of being ill at some future point in time. That is as wrong as taking away someone's medical license because they might commit malpractice because they are distracted by a sick child at home.

Here's a new study from Israel that shows better protection from natural infection vs vaccination. It's not a race, just long-standing immune science. There is nothing special about this virus in that sense.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

...
Results SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were previously infected.