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  • COVID- 19 Vaccine Dangers, Side Effects, Controversy

    Hi. It's been years since I posted anything. But now I am in a real conundrum trying to understand the pros and cons of getting the vaccine so we are turning to you folks for possible answers.

    We have a 70 year old friend in England who after taking the 2nd dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine began showing symptoms of bruising and leg swelling.

    Her platelets dropped from 350 to 10. Now she's on heavy clotting medication, her platelets are up to 100. She is told she has non-hereditary hemophilia (ITP)! They are not sure if she can be cured. She obviously regrets getting the vaccine.

    So are the vaccines really safe? And should they be mandated or should this be an individual choice? As more doctors and scientists question what they are calling, a massive human experiment (and are silenced thus stunting any real conversation), the public is quite naturally becoming more concerned that the vaccines were rushed to market ahead of any real understanding of their long term side effects.

    Covid-19: politicisation, ?corruption,? and suppression of science https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31
    In France, where I live, people are very resistant.

    This microbiologists Dr. Scuharit Bhakdi, explains that the third and fourth vaccinations (after these first two), could be lethal, especially in those who produce a strong immune response / reaction to the booster. Microbiologist Says Vaccines will Decimate World?s Population https://www.brighteon.com/7a11d611-3...e-ec16cfb53d59

    In there sample chapter in English of Dr.'s Karina Reiss, Sucharit Bhakdi's new book, Corona Unmasked (not yet available in English) mentions several side effect among others.
    https://www.goldegg-verlag.com/golde..._leseprobe.pdf

    So the question is: should we be mandating this vaccine for young people entering college? And for general populations? Are these claims true? Or is it too soon to make such sweeping declarations for or against? The UK is deciding in the next two weeks whether or not to mandate the vaccine and likely other EU countries will follow. In France, while they say the vaccine will not be mandatory, they are considering making it so.

    Thoughts? All of this has shaken my resolve to get vaccinated.

    Thank you, GS.

  • #2
    Full disclosure. I am fully vaccinated and had no side effects other than swelling at the injection site.

    There's some risk with any drug or treatment, including this vaccine. But you have to balance it against the risk of what the vaccine protects against. If you choose not to get vaccinated, you're almost certainly going to contract COVID in the next few months or years, which provides perhaps a 0.5-1.0% chance of death and perhaps 10-20 times that chance of severe long-term disability. Hundreds of millions of people have taken the vaccine with cases like your friend's being relatively rare. Even if you believe COVID is an order of magnitude less deadly than I do, I'd argue the chance of being harmed or killed by the vaccine is at least three orders of magnitude lower than your chances with the virus.

    To me, it was an easy decision.

    Comment


    • #3
      @alerte: what are the risk differences between an intramuscular vaccine and a nasal vaccine, given current knowledge?

      This question is asked, because both are going to exist and therefore the comparisons will take place, before the end of this year.

      If the differences are significant, can you tell us the potential number and the potential cost of procedures that will be initiated?
      I am writing this, because for some, only the costs are important ...


      Comment


      • GardenSpider
        GardenSpider commented
        Editing a comment
        Here is a link to the Institute Pasteur in France that has useful information about the key differences. https://www.pasteur.fr/en/press-area...ing-protection

      • bertrand789
        bertrand789 commented
        Editing a comment
        GardenSpider Merci, si vous avez acc?s aux donn?es de cet institut , il en pense quoi de ce dossier le r?cent retrait? qui ?tait l'expert O.M.S pour l'Asie ?

      • GardenSpider
        GardenSpider commented
        Editing a comment
        @betrand786 Je ne sais pas. Peut-?tre pouvez-vous trouver des r?ponses en ligne?

    • #4
      Originally posted by GardenSpider View Post
      Hi. It's been years since I posted anything. But now I am in a real conundrum trying to understand the pros and cons of getting the vaccine so we are turning to you folks for possible answers.

      We have a 70 year old friend in England who after taking the 2nd dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine began showing symptoms of bruising and leg swelling.

      Her platelets dropped from 350 to 10. Now she's on heavy clotting medication, her platelets are up to 100. She is told she has non-hereditary hemophilia (ITP)! They are not sure if she can be cured. She obviously regrets getting the vaccine.

      So are the vaccines really safe? And should they be mandated or should this be an individual choice? As more doctors and scientists question what they are calling, a massive human experiment (and are silenced thus stunting any real conversation), the public is quite naturally becoming more concerned that the vaccines were rushed to market ahead of any real understanding of their long term side effects.

      Covid-19: politicisation, ?corruption,? and suppression of science https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31
      In France, where I live, people are very resistant.

      This microbiologists Dr. Scuharit Bhakdi, explains that the third and fourth vaccinations (after these first two), could be lethal, especially in those who produce a strong immune response / reaction to the booster. Microbiologist Says Vaccines will Decimate World?s Population https://www.brighteon.com/7a11d611-3...e-ec16cfb53d59

      In there sample chapter in English of Dr.'s Karina Reiss, Sucharit Bhakdi's new book, Corona Unmasked (not yet available in English) mentions several side effect among others.
      https://www.goldegg-verlag.com/golde..._leseprobe.pdf

      So the question is: should we be mandating this vaccine for young people entering college? And for general populations? Are these claims true? Or is it too soon to make such sweeping declarations for or against? The UK is deciding in the next two weeks whether or not to mandate the vaccine and likely other EU countries will follow. In France, while they say the vaccine will not be mandatory, they are considering making it so.

      Thoughts? All of this has shaken my resolve to get vaccinated.

      Thank you, GS.
      Disclosure: I am fully vaccinated since last Thursday with Moderna. So far my only side effect is a sore upper arm at the injection site. This was my decision based on my assessment of my risk factors.

      We can discuss vaccines here but I think you will not get any definite answers. There is no data on medium and long term problems with the COVID-19 vaccines. There is nothing anyone can say that will convince "resistant" people to get one.

      The bottom line is that you need to educate yourself. We have a lot of vaccine information in our scientific library. link There is always pubmed to check. link

      The messaging that is being pushed out by the US government and their media partners is to get the vaccine. It appears that anyone reluctant is being called derogatory names. This is not productive.

      The message should be:

      "Yes, it is understandable that you have concerns about the COVID-19 vaccines. This is a legitimate concern. Here is a list of the possible side effects. We do not know the medium and long term effects yet. You have to evaluate your personal situation to determine your risk of getting the vaccine vs. not getting the vaccine. Talk to your health care practitioner about it."

      We do not have the answers here because no one knows for sure.

      Life is a risk analysis everyday. Whether to take the bus or walk.....spend the night or drive home after midnight....eat at a restaurant....get in an elevator....

      So the best advice is to do your research....stay informed about the progress of COVID-19 throughout the world and your local area.

      Comment


      • #5
        Living in the US, and having employer-provided health insurance, there was no cost to me for any vaccine, and I took the first vaccine available, which was a Pfizer intramuscular vaccine, in order to minimize my risk of contacting COVID before the vaccine would take effect. To me, any of the available vaccines is better than none at all. If you remember correctly, I posted in here in the 2009 H1N1 pandemic that I had driven quite a long distance to get vaccinated as soon as vaccine was available to the general population, and the risks involved with infection in 2009 were substantially less than we are dealing with now.

        If, by the time you have vaccine available to you, there are multiple options with perhaps different levels of cost, risk, and protection, that's a more complicated decision. But it seems that any vaccine would be preferable than actually contracting the disease.

        Comment


        • bertrand789
          bertrand789 commented
          Editing a comment
          @alerte:
          Except that people who were in favor of the H1N1 vaccine are asking more questions about it.

          I ask again the question, why the Mr, chose the intramuscular route and not nasal, less expensive, more ecological and surely, from my point of view, more durable?

          Isn't it really a world that question?

          It was asked with courtesy, a long time ago, we need legal proceedings to have a courteous and well-founded answer?

        • sharon sanders
          sharon sanders commented
          Editing a comment
          bertrand - Nasal "route" is not available in the US. This is why no one is choosing it.

        • bertrand789
          bertrand789 commented
          Editing a comment
          @Sharon, ce qui existe est ce qui a ?t? choisi . Donc , ceux qui ont fait ces choix doivent ?tre identifi?s et vont devoir s'expliquer sur leurs choix ...

      • #6
        Originally posted by sharon sanders View Post

        Disclosure: I am fully vaccinated since last Thursday with Moderna. So far my only side effect is a sore upper arm at the injection site. This was my decision based on my assessment of my risk factors.

        We can discuss vaccines here but I think you will not get any definite answers. There is no data on medium and long term problems with the COVID-19 vaccines. There is nothing anyone can say that will convince "resistant" people to get one.

        The bottom line is that you need to educate yourself. We have a lot of vaccine information in our scientific library. link There is always pubmed to check. link

        The messaging that is being pushed out by the US government and their media partners is to get the vaccine. It appears that anyone reluctant is being called derogatory names. This is not productive.

        The message should be:

        "Yes, it is understandable that you have concerns about the COVID-19 vaccines. This is a legitimate concern. Here is a list of the possible side effects. We do not know the medium and long term effects yet. You have to evaluate your personal situation to determine your risk of getting the vaccine vs. not getting the vaccine. Talk to your health care practitioner about it."

        We do not have the answers here because no one knows for sure.

        Life is a risk analysis everyday. Whether to take the bus or walk.....spend the night or drive home after midnight....eat at a restaurant....get in an elevator....

        So the best advice is to do your research....stay informed about the progress of COVID-19 throughout the world and your local area.
        Thank you Sharon. I will continue to research. I am particularly concerned by reports of a potentially dangerous effect upon receiving 3rd and 4th boosters since any immunity bestowed by the vaccine is transitory, lasting three to six months. This will require people to get repeated exposures to a vaccine so little is known about. It is not a one size fits all. For some, immunity may last longer, others shorter. But for everyone who is vaccinated with each passing week, immunity is already waning. In the UK, they can test antibody levels to see if people are still protected. Might be a good idea before getting the 3rd shot?

        My age group is not yet eligible in France where the roll out has been slow. So, I still have some time to decide, plus I am very isolated out in the countryside. I am very interested in learning more about the intranasal spray vaccine being developed by multiple countries around the world. The Institute Pasteur is also developing one and the technology seems like it would produce less dangerous side effects but of course nothing is certain until they have concluded the clinical trials. https://www.pasteur.fr/en/press-area...ing-protection It seems promising.

        Comment


        • #7
          Originally posted by alert View Post
          Full disclosure. I am fully vaccinated and had no side effects other than swelling at the injection site.

          There's some risk with any drug or treatment, including this vaccine. But you have to balance it against the risk of what the vaccine protects against. If you choose not to get vaccinated, you're almost certainly going to contract COVID in the next few months or years, which provides perhaps a 0.5-1.0% chance of death and perhaps 10-20 times that chance of severe long-term disability. Hundreds of millions of people have taken the vaccine with cases like your friend's being relatively rare. Even if you believe COVID is an order of magnitude less deadly than I do, I'd argue the chance of being harmed or killed by the vaccine is at least three orders of magnitude lower than your chances with the virus.

          To me, it was an easy decision.
          Thank you for your reply. I am glad it was easy for you! I am definitely struggling! I was onboard just last week, before I learned about our friend. How do you feel about the 3rd and 4th boosters? Do you feel comfortable with repeated exposures to an unknown vaccine? I wrestle with this daily and find very little information regarding the possibility of increased side effects (immune enhancement), with the exception of doctors and scientists who are opposed. So not very helpful is allying my concerns.

          Comment


          • #8
            Originally posted by GardenSpider View Post

            Thank you for your reply. I am glad it was easy for you! I am definitely struggling! I was onboard just last week, before I learned about our friend. How do you feel about the 3rd and 4th boosters? Do you feel comfortable with repeated exposures to an unknown vaccine? I wrestle with this daily and find very little information regarding the possibility of increased side effects (immune enhancement), with the exception of doctors and scientists who are opposed. So not very helpful is allying my concerns.
            I'd have to wait and see what science says at the time. Do we think my immunity would be waning? How much COVID is still circulating at that point? How much has the virus drifted away from the vaccine strain? Is the virus still as severe as it is now or has it attenuated and become just another human coronavirus?

            Good science takes time, and I'd think that the first two doses of vaccine should hopefully buy me at least that.

            Comment


            • GardenSpider
              GardenSpider commented
              Editing a comment
              Here's hoping! In England people who have had CoVid can have their antibody levels checked before getting the vaccine to see if it is needed. Maybe you can check in a few months before the 3rd booster, to see where you are before deciding as well. Yes, good science takes time. And participants also need a great deal of patience to let science take its course.

          • #9
            GardenSpider, the only experience I have with ITP after vaccination (rabies) was in a toy breed rescue dog that also was the only dog I had to have had a microchip. The other toy breed dog I had got mast cell cancer in his rabies vaccine site, but as horrible as that was and the cancers that killed two other dogs of mine, cancer was easier to deal with than the pure autoimmune disease.

            I wonder if your friend had something that was activating his/her immune system prior to the vaccine. I wish we knew more about pinpointing risk factors for triggering autoimmunity because that would help us avoid this outcome after both vaccinations and natural infections.
            _____________________________________________

            Ask Congress to Investigate COVID Origins and Government Response to Pandemic H.R. 834

            i love myself. the quietest. simplest. most powerful. revolution ever. ---- nayyirah waheed

            (My posts are not intended as advice or professional assessments of any kind.)
            Never forget Excalibur.

            Comment


            • GardenSpider
              GardenSpider commented
              Editing a comment
              Emily, I relayed your query to our friend said she has been wondering if she has cancer. Now she will get a full workup. Thank you.

            • Emily
              Emily commented
              Editing a comment
              I hope it isn't anything so serious, GardenSpider, but if she has been wondering I'm glad she'll get this checked out. I'm wishing her the best.

            • GardenSpider
              GardenSpider commented
              Editing a comment
              Emily, I have TWO close friends now with life threatening side-effects from the Astra Zeneca vaccine. A second, very dear friend of mine had extreme side effects for two weeks (extreme nausea, vomiting, some fever) after the shot. Then just last week (about a month following the last AZ injection), she saw a deep color appearing on her foot then her leg started turning black! She went to the doctor right away and it was discovered she has clots!

              Our other friend has taken a turn for the worse and even on medication her platelet count has dropped from 100 to 35. The doctors in the UK don't know what to do. My friend did ask for a cancer screening, but without specifics they don't know where to look. So she is at a loss and very scared. She has asked that we post her medical report for any great minds out here who may be able to help. I am crying!

          • #10
            "Environ 24 millions de personnes aux ?tats-Unis (7% de la population totale) souffrent de maladies auto-immunes [1] [3] . L'incidence des femmes est plus ?lev?e que celle des hommes [1] . Il commence g?n?ralement ? l'?ge adulte [1] . Les maladies auto-immunes ont ?t? d?crites pour la premi?re fois au d?but des ann?es 1900"

            ...

            Selon l' hypoth?se de l'
            hygi?ne , par rapport au pass?, le niveau ?lev? de propret? d'aujourd'hui expose les enfants ? moins d'antig?nes, ce qui entra?ne une hyperactivit? de leur syst?me immunitaire, et ils sont plus susceptibles de confondre leurs propres tissus avec des corps ?trangers, conduisant ? une auto-immunit? ou ? une allergie. maladies, telles que l' asthme .


            https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%87...96%BE%E7%97%85

            https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...48866311012148

            Comment


            • bertrand789
              bertrand789 commented
              Editing a comment
              Emily for some, including Germans, intestinal parasitism is one of the players in acquired mucosal immunity. In any case, there seems to be a connection between that and the microbiome.

              Ultraviolet radiation is a possible cause of dermatomyositis (an autoimmune disease), [29] exposure to pesticides may have the effect of RA, [30] and vitamin D has been shown to be the key to preventing immune dysfunction in the elderly. [31] The infectious agent is considered to be the activating factor of T cells, and activation of T cells is a step to activate autoimmune diseases. Public knowledge of these mechanisms is relatively limited, but it is currently useful to explain one of the theories of autoimmune diseases (such as Guillain-Barr? syndrome and rheumatic fever) caused by infection.

              https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%87...A7%E7%96%BE%E7 % 97% 85

            • Emily
              Emily commented
              Editing a comment
              Pesticides were heavily used in the area I used to live in, and poorly regulated.

            • bertrand789
              bertrand789 commented
              Editing a comment
              @Emily,I have a thought for all these overweight women because of their mother's diet, foolishly enriched with glyphosate, who is trying to be chronically overweight.

              The boss of the C.D.C, a woman, however, when?

          • #11
            Sorry, in this context, which I find deplorable, because being the negation of science, it seems essential to me to dare a touch of humor. I even dared to go to this place:

            https://www.facebook.com/leblogdemar...23896999495500

            you can then understand that only part of the USA can tempt me ...

            Comment


            • #12
              https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...mation-reports

              BioNTech CEO: Seeking details on heart inflammation reports

              BioNTech is seeking details of reports from Israel of cases of heart inflammation among people receiving the COVID-19 vaccine it is making with Pfizer


              On a personal level I find it easy to reconcile a vaccine when you look at the problems with the actual real-life virus. https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/...int#post909272

              bertrand789
              Senior User

              #3
              March 9, 2021, 09:21 AM
              It's time to use the right word : syndemic


              We will probably never know how many people were actually infected WHEN they received the vaccine. How do you sift out which symptoms were caused by the vaccine and which symptoms were caused by actual infection, either latent or breakthrough?

              Disclosure - one dose of AstraZeneca. Waiting for my turn to receive the second.
              ?The only security we have is our ability to adapt."

              Comment


            • #13
              Here is a report on an interesting study that adds some credence to the idea that the clotting problems observed in Covid are an integral part of the actions of the spike protein of SARS-Cov-2 itself.

              If this is indeed proven to be the case, then all and any vaccines that target or include the spike protein are likely to have the potential to cause systemic effects such as clotting [which could occur anywhere there are aCE2 receptors]. However, if that is the case, it would be quite logical that people who have adverse reactions to any of the vaccines, would in fact be the people who would be most likely to suffer a severe course of disease. Obviously the spike protein isn't the whole story, and I do feel the risks of infection far outweigh any risks of severe adverse events from vaccination.. and people need to remember these can be dealt with fairly easily if caught early. But with all that said, we do need to understand what is going on here, and the study behind this report may be a big step forward in understanding.

              SARS-CoV-2 spike protein alone may cause lung damage
              https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-...tein-lung.html


              Using a newly developed mouse model of acute lung injury, researchers found that exposure to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein alone was enough to induce COVID-19-like symptoms including severe inflammation of the lungs.

              [More within article]

              Comment


              • bertrand789
                bertrand789 commented
                Editing a comment
                The researchers found that the genetically modified mice injected with the spike protein exhibited COVID-19-like symptoms that included severe inflammation, an influx of white blood cells into their lungs and evidence of a cytokine storm?an immune response in which the body starts to attack its own cells and tissues rather than just fighting off the virus.


                injected

                cela signifie quoi : "injected" ?


                avec ces m?mes souris , par contamination par l'eau ou l'aliment , il se passe quoi ?

              • bertrand789
                bertrand789 commented
                Editing a comment
                "Mixing vaccines that use different technologies or different modes of entry, such as nasal sprays, might be useful, he adds."
                https://www.nature.com/articles/d415...12e01-45126134

            • #14
              bump this

              Comment


              • #15
                Originally posted by GardenSpider View Post

                Thank you for your reply. I am glad it was easy for you! I am definitely struggling! I was onboard just last week, before I learned about our friend. How do you feel about the 3rd and 4th boosters? Do you feel comfortable with repeated exposures to an unknown vaccine? I wrestle with this daily and find very little information regarding the possibility of increased side effects (immune enhancement), with the exception of doctors and scientists who are opposed. So not very helpful is allying my concerns.
                I did see that the UK have ordered a further 60 million Pfizer vaccines specifically for the "booster shots" to cover variants. Scheduled for autumn delivery. I am wondering if they are thinking it will both cover bases with regards to the different types of vaccine and the immune response triggered - and also limit the possibility of adverse reactions to multiple exposures. ??? If they have both AstraZeneca and Pfizer variant vaccinations available - it would suit everyone - regardless of their initial doses. It will be interesting to see the results of the one Shot Astra and next Pfizer trial.

                I also think that if you have very deeply held concerns, and with good reason (we are all going through the logic of what options we can or will have available to us) perhaps your GP/family doctor would be able to discuss this all. They will be in the best position to discuss your needs because they know you better than anyone else (medically speaking ).
                ?The only security we have is our ability to adapt."

                Comment


                • GardenSpider
                  GardenSpider commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Well one thing is for sure, with two dear friends now suffering life-threatening side effects from AZ, (both are living in the UK),I will certainly avoid that one! I must admit to being quite scared. I will try and find a way forward to protect myself. For now I remain extremely isolated in the countryside in France.
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