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  • #46
    Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

    Welcome to Flutrackers, Ningtyas. Here is a machine translation of the link posted by Ningtyas in post #50 above. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    The Foreign Affairs Department RI: MoU NAMRU-2 was not responded to by AS <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    FridayApril 25 08 06:04 WIB<o:p></o:p>
    The Foreign Affairs Department said the step in the NAMRU resolution at this time was ditangan the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region> government, in the middle of the existence controversy of the laboratory that still was continuing to happen, karenadinilai carried out the activity that violated the agreement.<o:p></o:p>
    This matter was sent by the Spokesperson Foreign Affairs Department Kristiarto Soerjo Legowo ended the inauguration of the official of the I echelon and Ii, in the Foreign Affairs Department Office, <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jakarta</st1:place></st1:City>, on Thursday (24/4)<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    According to him, the government has sent the draft of the extension of the co-operation since November 2007, but was not yet responded to.<o:p></o:p>
    In drart that, the government gave various consideration of the aspect of the interests of the nation.<o:p></o:p>
    "We have sent the draft MoU, now the ball ditangan they, no matter what was put by us the plan that in the second co-operation the side continued to maintain the interests" of the "Indonesian nation," explained Kris.<o:p></o:p>
    When being asked, until <st1:country-region w:st="on">Indonesia</st1:country-region> will be waiting for the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> response, Kristiarto said, was waited for then.<o:p></o:p>
    In the meantime, the Observer of Wawan Purwanto Intelligence said, the activity intelejen the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region> in The Naval Medical Research Unit-2 (Namru-2) has been suspected since long before by the Intelijen Negara Body (bin).<o:p></o:p>
    However, this information was not followed up by the government.<o:p></o:p>
    "Actually our intelligence for a long time, for years discussed that interdepartmental."<o:p></o:p>
    Friends in inteligen has thrown this problem to the government, "he said."<o:p></o:p>
    Manurutnya, the position of intelligence only was limited by the information giver to the government, whereas concerning the policy, was ditangan pemerintah. because this the problem between government to government.<o:p></o:p>
    Concerning MoU just that was put forward by the RI government to the US government related the existence Namru-2 in Indonesia, Wawan asked that the government reviewed this agreement, in order to be closed and be open mutually.<o:p></o:p>
    "Better be reviewed, could not like the 70 's, has been different," pungkasnya. (the novel)<o:p></o:p>
    http://novel-infectious-diseases.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

      maybe let the Dutch operate Namru2 ?
      I'm interested in expert panflu damage estimates
      my current links: [url]http://bit.ly/hFI7H[/url] ILI-charts: [url]http://bit.ly/CcRgT[/url]

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

        Originally posted by Florida1 View Post
        Welcome Ningtyas and thank you for participating.

        We want to hear all sides of the issues.

        Our only concern regarding Namru2 is the ability to have various diseases investigated in a WHO approved laboratory. This laboratory is already in place.

        I understand the reluctance to have a laboratory, or other installation, that is the representation of a foreign government, in situ. It would not be my first choice either. But this is the situation that we have presently.

        I hope all parties will expeditiously work to achieve an agreement.

        We need to remember that we are all one people. Despite cultural, religious, and language differences we all want the same thing - a safe and peaceful world. We, as individuals, are subjected to the decisions of the various power elites in our countries. We, as a collective voice, can change the policies and procedures of our governments.

        It starts with dialogue like this. One voice is joined by many.
        Well thank you Florida1.
        I partly agree with your post. Not all.

        As for the benefit of its presence, well some would argue. Maybe the harm to Indonesia's interest is greater than its benefit.

        Quoted from GATRA magazine :
        "Meski mengakui sulit mendapatkan bukti nyata, sumber Gatra yang dekat dengan kalangan intelijen itu meyakini, NAMRU-2 juga mengembangkan sejumlah strain penyakit tropis dan mengujicobakannya pada masyarakat Indonesia di daerah-daerah terpencil. Kecurigaan ini muncul dengan banyaknya strain baru pada penyakit yang diteliti NAMRU-2. “Kalau tidak ada yang utak-atik, nggak mungkin strain baru bisa muncul. Normalnya perlu ribuan tahun,” ujar sumber Gatra yang menolak disebutkan namanya itu."

        It said that the Gatra source had some reasons to believe (even though not proved yet); that NAMRU-2 develops some strain of tropical diseases and try them out to Indonesian people in remote areas. This suspicion arise because there are many new strains on the diseases that were studied by NAMRU-2.

        So you see, there are already many suspicions in place about NAMRU-2 activities. And the stubborness of the US to ask immunity for NAMRU-2 staff only add the fuel to the fire. Why the immunity?

        http://old.thejakartapost.com/detail...425.@02&irec=1

        I only want others to not so quick to condemn my country as if its a criminal on this H5N1 and NAMRU-2 issues.

        Thank you

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

          I completely agree that Indonesia should not be condemned on Namru2 and/or H5N1 issues. All sides have valid points.

          There are many rumours that surround all controversial issues.

          The immunity question is an interesting one. I am not familiar with this aspect of the controversy. Do you have any links where a U.S. representative is directly quoted or a document is requesting this for all U.S. workers at the laboratory?
          "May the long time sun
          Shine upon you,
          All love surround you,
          And the pure light within you
          Guide your way on."

          "Where your talents and the needs of the world cross, lies your calling."
          Aristotle

          “In a gentle way, you can shake the world.”
          Mohandas Gandhi

          Be the light that is within.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

            Originally posted by Florida1 View Post
            The immunity question is an interesting one. I am not familiar with this aspect of the controversy. Do you have any links where a U.S. representative is directly quoted or a document is requesting this for all U.S. workers at the laboratory?
            From what I gather in the news, in the past all the US researchers of NAMRU-2 were given the immunity. But after decades Indonesia wanted changed. Indonesia only agreed to grant only 2 of them (the director of the lab and its deputy), so in a new memorandum Indonesia stated this, but the USA refused.

            In the link I give above (the Jakarta Post), the position of the US is clear.
            Excerpt
            The United States has insisted on diplomatic status for all 19 Americans at its Namru-2 research lab in Jakarta, while also maintaining the lab is committed to transparency.

            Deputy Chief of Mission at the U.S. Embassy John A. Heffern said American researchers at the Naval Medical Research Unit No. 2 (Namru-2) had some level of diplomatic immunity as part of the embassy community.

            "It is our hope in negotiations that an MOU would allow Americans at Namru to have (diplomatic) status," he told a news conference here Thursday.

            Indonesia said Wednesday it decided to grant diplomatic immunity to only two American officials at Namru-2 and demanded the laboratory ensure transparency in its operations.

            Indonesia and the United States are now negotiating a new MOU to extend the operation of Namru-2 after the previous agreement expired in 2005.

            Heffern, who leads the U.S. team in the MOU negotiations, said the immunity status was one of the pending issues at the talks.

            Although the Namru-2 staff had some level of immunity, it would be different from full diplomatic status, he said.

            According to the U.S. State Department, administrative and technical staff of the kind at Namru-2 have immunity from prosecution, police arrests and court subpoena as witnesses.

            Their residences are also closed to law enforcers and their family members share the same levels of immunity.
            If the Indonesian govt fulfill this demand, there will be a huge pressure against our govt from its people. No doubt about it.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

              Thank you.

              We are talking about only 19 U.S. employees? Correct?

              What is the reason behind changing the immunity policy?

              Maybe a solution is to increase the limit to more than 2 but not 19?

              What is reasonable? 8? 10?
              "May the long time sun
              Shine upon you,
              All love surround you,
              And the pure light within you
              Guide your way on."

              "Where your talents and the needs of the world cross, lies your calling."
              Aristotle

              “In a gentle way, you can shake the world.”
              Mohandas Gandhi

              Be the light that is within.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                Originally posted by Florida1 View Post
                Thank you.
                We are talking about only 19 U.S. employees? Correct?
                What is the reason behind changing the immunity policy?
                Maybe a solution is to increase the limit to more than 2 but not 19?
                What is reasonable? 8? 10?
                I guess we are talking about the number of all US researchers at NAMRU-2 at one time. Currently they are 19, but in the past they were 16, or 23 or maybe less and more. The point is, Indonesia agreed to give 2 of them, the US wants it given to all of them.

                I think increasing any number will not be accepted by Indonesians.
                And the question is still unanswered, why the immunity? What kind of crime do researchers possibly doing? Is it developing new strains of diseases and then trying it out to Indonesian people? Or what?


                As the reason of the changing...
                maybe this newest information will be of help. In 1998, Indonesia's military chief suggested the govt to end the operation of NAMRU-2 in Indonesia because its give no benefit to Indonesia.
                I do not think this kind of news should be publicized, but its public now, so I think this has something to do with our 2009 election.
                We will have to wait what our president will say about all this. He cannot be silent on this forever. Our media will not let it...

                If you want you can see the link here
                http://www.detiknews.com/indexfr.php...356/idkanal/10

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                  It is my understanding, and I could be wrong, but diplomatic immunity extends to "regular" crimes like stealing etc. Crimes as the kind that you are talking about are crimes against humanity and are not covered by any diplomatic immunity. So maybe this immunity issue is not really a major block to an agreement?
                  "May the long time sun
                  Shine upon you,
                  All love surround you,
                  And the pure light within you
                  Guide your way on."

                  "Where your talents and the needs of the world cross, lies your calling."
                  Aristotle

                  “In a gentle way, you can shake the world.”
                  Mohandas Gandhi

                  Be the light that is within.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                    Originally posted by Florida1 View Post
                    It is my understanding, and I could be wrong, but diplomatic immunity extends to "regular" crimes like stealing etc. Crimes as the kind that you are talking about are crimes against humanity and are not covered by any diplomatic immunity. So maybe this immunity issue is not really a major block to an agreement?
                    I don't know.
                    As the spokesman of the Indonesian foreign ministry said, we will have to wait to the response of the USA on this matter. The matter rest with them, not us.

                    Well if the immunity issue is not a major block, then why the US refuse the new MoU? Why insisted on the immunity? Why must Indonesia give the US what they want if they want it too much? How many foreign workers that work in your country given such kind of immunity?

                    Don't forget that we are a sovereign state, despite poor and has many trouble.

                    Thank you

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                      I think the U.S. has many thousands of foreign workers with diplomatic immunity.

                      I hope everyone can come to some kind of agreement. I have great respect and admiration for the Indonesian people. I understand your points.

                      Thank you for a great conversation! It is past my bedtime.
                      "May the long time sun
                      Shine upon you,
                      All love surround you,
                      And the pure light within you
                      Guide your way on."

                      "Where your talents and the needs of the world cross, lies your calling."
                      Aristotle

                      “In a gentle way, you can shake the world.”
                      Mohandas Gandhi

                      Be the light that is within.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                        News Focus: Extension of RI-US cooperation on Namru-2 facing resistence
                        By Andi Abdussalam
                        Jakarta (ANTARA News) -
                        The extension of operation with US Naval Medical Research Unit 2 (Namru2) now under negotiations between Indonesia and the United States is facing resistance from legislators and professionals.
                        "The government should stop and take over the operation of Namru-2 laboratory," Mutammimul Ula, member of the House of Representatives` Commission I which deals with foreign affairs, said here on Thursday.

                        During 30 years of operation in Indonesia, Namru-2 failed to provide the country with concrete benefits in the defense and health fields.

                        Mutammimul Ula claimed that other legislators agreed if the drafting process of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) released by the Foreign Ministry is terminated.

                        "Indonesia has now established cooperation with various institutions like the World Health Organization (WHO) to carry out researches and data transfers," he said adding that therefore the extension of cooperation with Namru-2 was not necessary.

                        "The government should adversely carry out investigation on allegation that the Namru-2 staffers were involved in intelligence operations," he said.

                        The US embassy in Jakarta should provide evidence and fact that Namru-2 is not an institution carrying out espionage activities, according to the legislator.

                        "In whatever case, cooperation should be based on transparency and equality which respects the nation and state sovereignty and benefits both sides," Mutammimul Ula said.

                        In the meantime, Medical Emergency Rescue Committee (MER-C) and An Nashr Institute also urged the government of Indonesia not to extend its cooperation with the US Naval Medical Research Institute.

                        The appeal was voiced in a statement signed by MER-C Presidium Chairman Joserizal Jurnalis and An Nashr Institute`s Chairman Munarman.

                        It said the presence of Namru-2 in Indonesia over 30 years now failed to benefit the people.

                        An agreement between the Indonesian and US governments on Namru-2 operations reached on January 16, 1970, was believed to have caused a loss to Indonesia because of the diplomatic immunity of the Namru-2 staff members, their tax exemption and free accommodation.

                        Namru-2 was also believed to have violated the cooperation agreement, because of their continued research work even that the contract had expired.

                        In addition, Namru-2 was also reported not transparent in their information for the Indonesian government and that their operations were allegedly linked to US intelligence operations in Indonesia.

                        The US embassy in Jakarta said that Namru-2 was a transparent organization which only conducted medical and scientific research work focusing on tropical diseases.

                        The biomedical research laboratory of Namru-2, according to the US embassy, conducted a series of research work on infectious diseases to serve the interest of the US and Indonesian health ministry as well as of the health of the international community.

                        The search work was more focused on malaria, virus-related diseases and other infectious diseases including bird flu.

                        Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari said Namru-2 had begun conducting researches on communicable diseases in Indonesia in the 1970s but the results of which were not yet concrete for the elimination of contagious diseases in Indonesia.

                        Therefore, according to the minister, the government should deeply consider it before it decided to extend the cooperation. "Should the cooperation be extended, the government must firmly state its attitude in the new agreement," she said.

                        Previously, Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirajuda said decision on the extension of Namru-2 cooperation had not yet been taken. "Still pending," he told reporters on Monday.

                        He said that the Indonesian government had proposed a draft MoU in November 2007 which the United States still was discussing.

                        On the diplomatic immunity requested by the United States for 20 Amru-2 staffers, the minister said that it would be restricted.

                        "We restrict it because it is a research activity not a diplomatic function so that we were of the opinion that not all of them should be granted diplomatic immunity," he said.

                        Diplomatic imunity
                        Indonesian Defense Minister Juwono Sudarsono said on Thursday that the Indonesian government is persisting in its preparedness to grant diplomatic immunity to only two US Namru-2 staff members.

                        "We are sticking to our stance that not all of Namru-2 officers will be granted diplomatic immunity. We will give the immunity to only two of the 20 US naval officers with Namru-2," he said.

                        The minister said besides restricting the number of Namru-2 staff having diplomatic immunity, Indonesia was also insisting that doctors of the Indonesian Navy be assigned in Namru-2 as supervisors.

                        The need to assign Indonesian supervisors was due to the fact that so far the activities carried out by Namru-2 officers were not transparent.

                        "We want Indonesian naval officers to be involved in the activities of NAMRU-2," the minister said.

                        Indonesia and the United States are still negotiating several points for the resumption of their cooperation on Namru-2.

                        "The discussions are now focused on the United States request for diplomatic immunity for 20 Namru-2 staff members," the minister said. "If we give diplomatic immunity to all of them, we are afraid we will not be able to control or know the things they do or take in the research activities."

                        US Health Minister Michael O Levitt during a working visit in Indonesia asked the Indonesian government to give diplomatic immunity to Namru-2 staffers.

                        When the bird flu broke out in Indonesia in June-July, 2005, the Namru-2 cooperation was continued.

                        Namru-2 assisted Indonesia in research on avian influenza virus infection and helped the government send specimens of suspected patients to the Center for Diseases Control and Prevention (CDC)laboratory in Atlanta and the WHO collaboration laboratory in Hong Kong.

                        Namru-2`s contract with Indonesia expired on December 31, 2005 so that all activities with the laboratories were stopped on January 1, 2006. (*)
                        -
                        http://www.antara.co.id/en/arc/2008/...ng-resistence/
                        ------
                        [The question of US citizens immunity in foreign states is at center of several disputes also in other countries after the discovery of the so-called ''extraordinary-rendition program'' signed secretly by these countries and USA in the 9/11 aftermath. In Italy, several grave facts have involved US citizens: 1) a military jet collided with a cable-car, and dozen of passenger died after cabin fell into ground; 2) in the centre of Milan a moroccan Imam (who resided in Italy) was abducted by US agents and deported in secret prison and tortured for months; 3) an italian intelligence officer was shot dead in Baghdad after his car with a just-freed kidnapped journalist entered in the fire-area of US checkpoint. In all of these events, none of the US citizen involved faced italian court trial because special immunity of the personnel. I think that the worries expressed by Indonesian authorities may found proof in cases like those above mentioned, and more other happened in other countries.
                        Clearly, there is the need of an improved communication between local authorities and US agencies who operates in foreign countries and to allow a certain grade of liablity in case of violation of sovereignity or criminal actions, a list that should be draft with both parts agreement.
                        Clearly, there is the need of an improved communication between local authorities and US agencies operating in foreign countires. A list of criminal and sovereignity violations should be compiled by US and host country in order to grant a some degree of liability for the personnell involved and by this way, assuring foreign citizens and disable not-opportune political influence. IOH.]

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                          Originally posted by Florida1 View Post
                          I think the U.S. has many thousands of foreign workers with diplomatic immunity.

                          I hope everyone can come to some kind of agreement. I have great respect and admiration for the Indonesian people. I understand your points.

                          Thank you for a great conversation! It is past my bedtime.
                          You said that the U.S. has many thousands of foreign workers with diplomatic immunity. Are foreign researchers among them too, besides foreign diplomats?

                          Thank you

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                            Originally posted by ironorehopper View Post
                            [The question of US citizens immunity in foreign states is at center of several disputes also in other countries after the discovery of the so-called ''extraordinary-rendition program'' signed secretly by these countries and USA in the 9/11 aftermath. In Italy, several grave facts have involved US citizens: 1) a military jet collided with a cable-car, and dozen of passenger died after cabin fell into ground; 2) in the centre of Milan a moroccan Imam (who resided in Italy) was abducted by US agents and deported in secret prison and tortured for months; 3) an italian intelligence officer was shot dead in Baghdad after his car with a just-freed kidnapped journalist entered in the fire-area of US checkpoint. In all of these events, none of the US citizen involved faced italian court trial because special immunity of the personnel. I think that the worries expressed by Indonesian authorities may found proof in cases like those above mentioned, and more other happened in other countries.
                            Thanks for this.
                            I wonder if anyone knows why the Philippines end NAMRU operation on its soil in 1990.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                              Originally posted by Ningtyas View Post
                              Thanks for this.
                              I wonder if anyone knows why the Philippines end NAMRU operation on its soil in 1990.
                              Perhaps, one may take into account other experience of bilateral cooperation, like the Pasteur Centres, operating in south-east asian countries. In any case, the problem should be solved case per case and without paventing some sort of menaces as it may be read on recents newswires about US-Indonesia frictions.
                              Cooperation not occupation.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: NAMRU banned from Indonesia

                                from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

                                Diplomatic immunity is a form of legal immunity and a policy held between governments, which ensures that diplomats are given safe passage and are considered not susceptible to lawsuit or prosecution under the host country's laws (although they can be expelled). It was agreed as international law in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (1961), though the concept and custom have a much longer history. Many principles of diplomatic immunity are now considered to be customary law. Diplomatic immunity as an institution developed to allow for the maintenance of government relations, including during periods of difficulties and even armed conflict. When receiving diplomats — formally, representatives of the sovereign (head of state) — the receiving head of state grants certain privileges and immunities to ensure that they may effectively carry out their duties, on the understanding that these will be provided on a reciprocal basis. As one article put it: "So why do we agree to a system in which we're dependent on a foreign country's whim before we can prosecute a criminal inside our own borders? The practical answer is: because we depend on other countries to honor our own diplomats' immunity just as scrupulously as we honor theirs."<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup>
                                Originally, these privileges and immunities were granted on a bilateral, ad hoc basis, which led to misunderstandings and conflict, pressure on weaker states, and an inability for other states to judge which party was at fault. Various international agreements known as the Vienna Conventions codified the rules and agreements, providing standards and privileges to all states.
                                It is possible for the official's home country to waive immunity; this tends to only happen when the individual has committed a serious crime, unconnected with their diplomatic role (as opposed to, say, allegations of spying), or has witnessed such a crime. Alternatively, the home country may prosecute the individual. Many countries refuse to waive immunity as a matter of course; individuals have no authority to waive their own immunity (except perhaps in cases of defection).

                                Comment

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