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Thailand: Update-Canadian autopsy disputes Thai autopsy about DEET involvement - Sisters Died Of Undetermined Illness In Hotel
Re: Thailand: Update-Autopsy concludes DEET was cause of death - Sisters Died Of Undetermined Illness In Hotel
Amazing find, Emily. Thank you for keeping on this story.
I wonder how they could tell an accidental, instead of a deliberate, poisoning had occurred. DEET does sound like the kind of thing that one would have access to if they wanted to deliberately poison someone.
Re: Thailand: Update-Autopsy concludes DEET was cause of death - Sisters Died Of Undetermined Illness In Hotel
They must be investigating deliberate administration - I would have thought that the dosage level required for lethality is too high surely for an accident.
If the median lethal dose in rats (2 g/kg) is
applicable to humans, 50 ml of 100% DEET may is
potentially lethal for an 8-year-old child
(Tenenbein, 1987).
Re: Thailand: Update-Autopsy concludes DEET was cause of death - Sisters Died Of Undetermined Illness In Hotel
At first I thought that a very small amount of ingested DEET can kill some people. (15 ml is only .5 oz) But I think in that case, the victim survived.
My opinion is that there is almost no chance of the victims having knowingly consumed a drink with DEET added to it. I agree with the victims' father on that point.
I find it hard to believe that adding DEET to tourist drinks is at all common in Thailand. I would think there would be more tourist poisonings historically if that were true, especially with the drink mix described in the articles.
Rarely, people have ingested DEET intentionally to commit suicide, or because of psychological problems (Tenenbein 1987; Fraser et al. 1995). The effects resulting from intentional ingestion are variable, due to the different scenarios in which they occurred. Of the six reported cases of deliberate DEET ingestion, three led to death. In these cases, the amount ingested was 15-50 mL of 47.5% to 95% DEET in bottles. In two cases, bottles of DEET were drunk along with unspecified amounts of alcohol. Health effects included coma, unresponsiveness to pain and other stimuli, and death (Tenenbein 1987). In another case, a woman with a history of unipolar-depressive illness ingested a number of pills along with 50 mL of 95% DEET. She arrived at the hospital comatose and pulseless. She had a generalized seizure and died from a generalized bowel infarction (Tenenbein 1987). In another case, a woman with a history of psychological disorders ingested 15-25 mL of 95% DEET. She had a right and left atrial enlargement and diffuse ST-T abnormalities, but returned to normal within 24 hours with no further cardiac abnormalities (Fraser et al. 1995).
I have not been able find a case of DEET poisoning matching the symptoms in the article Alert found in post #15:
Dr Duangporn told Phuketwan today that she had ''never seen a case like it.''
''Both bodies had the same characteristics,'' she said. ''There was a lot of vomit in a wastepaper basket.
''There was blood under their skin, under their tongues and under their eyes. Their fingernails had turned green or purple.
There are reports of mucous membrane irritation in the CDC article, and very unusual skin reactions under some conditions here:
DEET Repellent
DEET (Detamide, MGK, OFF). For many years, diethyltoluamide has been effective and generally well tolerated when applied to human skin, although tingling and mild irritation have followed repeated application. In some cases, DEET has caused skin irritation and intensification of preexisting skin
disease. It is very irritating to the eyes, but not corrosive. Serious adverse effects have occurred when the product has been used under hot, humid conditions and applied to skin areas that are in direct contact during sleep. Under these conditions, the skin became red and tender, then exhibited blistering and erosion, leaving painful weeping bare areas that were slow to
heal. Permanent scarring resulted from most of these severe reactions.
Great caution should be exercised in using DEET on children. Only the products containing the lower concentrations should be used, and application should be limited to clothing, using as little repellent as
possible. If headache or any kind of emotional or behavioral change occurs, use of DEET should be discontinued immediately.
There is another autopsy being done in Canada. I don't think the police should write this off as unintentional death at this point. Let's say DEET were being added to tourist drinks with some regularity in Thailand, (again I strongly doubt the vast majority of tourists are aware of this); then it looks like only a very dilute formula of DEET could be used without many tourist deaths resulting.
If a higher concentrate DEET formula were inadvertently used in this case, many other poisonings and deaths would have resulted that night.
Last edited by Emily; September 6, 2012, 05:01 PM.
Reason: Changed opinion after reading CDC article again
"...there’s an obvious contest that’s happening between different sectors of the colonial ruling class in this country. And they would, if they could, lump us into their beef, their struggle." ---- Omali Yeshitela, African People’s Socialist Party
(My posts are not intended as advice or professional assessments of any kind.) Never forget Excalibur.
Phuket hacks back drug ?growers? in Thalang
Phuket Gazette ? Saturday, September 8, 2012 11:58:54 AM
PHUKET: Thalang police and district officers hacked open a path for progress in the war on drugs in Phuket by cutting down more than 60 kratom trees in Srisoonthorn yesterday.
Local residents alerted officials to the presence of the trees after finding that teenagers in the area were stealing the leaves to make a popular party cocktail ?4x100?, which was allegedly linked to the deaths of Canadian sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger on Phi Phi Island earlier this year.
However, 4x100 is not considered lethal when made using the usual ingredients of kratom leaf extract, cough syrup, cola and ice, but the alleged addition of DEET in the Belanger sisters? drinks may have introduced the tragic consequences....
That is a more reasonable scenario. DEET is not a routine addition to tourist drinks in Thailand, since the CDC data indicates it causes bad reactions, including death, when ingested in very small amounts when combined with alcohol or medications.
But a man in northern Thailand confessed to spiking coffee with pesticides in order to disable people enough to take advantage of them.
Man held in poisoning deaths of four
WISIT CHUANPIPATPONG
THE NATION April 18, 2012 1:00 am A man has been arrested on suspicion of killing at least four people by serving them pesticide-laced beverages, while plotting to steal their valuables and vehicles.
Three victims have survived, while two others remain unaccounted for...
The pesticide used is not named, but one of the survivors describes neurological symptoms before losing consciousness. The confessed poisoner said only the people who drank a whole cup of the pesticide-laced coffee died.
"...there’s an obvious contest that’s happening between different sectors of the colonial ruling class in this country. And they would, if they could, lump us into their beef, their struggle." ---- Omali Yeshitela, African People’s Socialist Party
(My posts are not intended as advice or professional assessments of any kind.) Never forget Excalibur.
Sisters' deaths in Thailand not from DEET, Quebec coroner says
Family still awaiting full results from Canadian autopsies
CBC News
Posted: Oct 10, 2012 7:13 PM ET
Last Updated: Oct 11, 2012 8:38 AM ET
A Quebec coroner is challenging the autopsy findings of Thai officials that ruled two Quebec sisters found dead in their hotel room in June were accidentally poisoned.
Coroner Ren?e Roussel told Radio-Canada the concentration of the chemical DEET in the sisters' systems wasn't enough to be fatal...
"...there’s an obvious contest that’s happening between different sectors of the colonial ruling class in this country. And they would, if they could, lump us into their beef, their struggle." ---- Omali Yeshitela, African People’s Socialist Party
(My posts are not intended as advice or professional assessments of any kind.) Never forget Excalibur.
By Alan Morison
Monday, October 22, 2012
News Analysis
PHUKET: Poisons expert Deborah Blum now speculates that a serial killer could be responsible for the mysterious deaths of Canadian sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger on Phi Phi...
Poison, Tourism, and Still Unanswered Questions in SE Asia
By Deborah Blum
October 21, 2012 |
6:02 pm
Last month, I wrote a post about the mysterious deaths of two young Canadian sisters on vacation in Thailand this summer. I was troubled by the ever-changing explanation of Thai authorities, including what seemed to me to be a preposterous proposal that the women were killed by mosquito repellent mixed into a beach cocktail...
"...there’s an obvious contest that’s happening between different sectors of the colonial ruling class in this country. And they would, if they could, lump us into their beef, their struggle." ---- Omali Yeshitela, African People’s Socialist Party
(My posts are not intended as advice or professional assessments of any kind.) Never forget Excalibur.
Re: Thailand: Update-Canadian autopsy disputes Thai autopsy about DEET involvement - Sisters Died Of Undetermined Illness In Hotel
Dead Tourists and a Dangerous Pesticide
BY DEBORAH BLUM03.14.1410:11 AM
...
I first wrote about these deaths in 2012, after two young sisters from Quebec died in their hotel on Thailand?s resort island of Ko Phi Phi Don. What caught my attention first was the improbable list of possible caused offered by Thai authorities, everything from poisonous mushrooms to cocktails laced with the mosquito repellent DEET. It rapidly became obvious they were among a surprising number of young women who had suffered undiagnosed poisoning deaths in Southeast Asia, some in the Phi Phi islands, others elsewhere in Thailand, and still others in Vietnam. My emphasis was on the unsolved nature of those deaths and the sorrow and frustration of their families.
Now a team of investigative journalists from Canada have published a report suggesting that the young sisters ? Audrey and No?mi B?langer ? appear to have been killed by aluminum phosphide/phosphine gas exposure. The experts they consulted say the bodies showed all the signs of this kind of acute poisoning, including bluing of the fingernails and toenails, which is a classic symptom of the kind of rapid oxygen-deprivation produced by this poison. The report, which also appears on the Canadian Broadcasting Company?s Fifth Estate program, cites evidence that some of the other travelers, such as a Norwegian woman who also died in the Phi Phi Islands, showed similar symptoms.
...
Phosphine gas is notoriously lethal (enough so that it was featured recently in a murderous episode of Breaking Bad). The pure gas is colorless and odorless so it carries no warning sign. It’s a fast, systematic, and corrosive killer; it “denatures” and breaks down a range of enzymes and proteins inside the body, including the ones responsible for moving oxygen through the body, and severely damages the heart. And it has no known antidote.
Deaths of Quebec women in Thailand may have been caused by pesticide
Audrey and No?mi B?langer died mysteriously while on holiday in 2012
By Julia Sisler, CBC News Posted: Mar 13, 2014 8:45 AM ET Last Updated: Mar 13, 2014 9:49 PM ET
...
The CBC/Radio-Canada investigation received a tip about what may have killed the sisters that points to a lethal pesticide called aluminum phosphide.
In Canada, the use of this pesticide is strictly regulated, and fumigators must get six months of training before they can handle it. Denis Bureau, a fumigation specialist in Quebec who is licensed to use it, told the fifth estate?s Mark Kelley that it could kill a human in less than two hours if the concentration is high enough.
?If you?re asleep in the room next to it or in the room where it?s been under fumigation, you?ll be dead in a few hours,? he said.
...
When two sisters from Quebec turned up dead in a Thailand hotel in 2012, authorities suggested everything from drugs to food poisoning. But an updated investigation by the fifth estate points to new evidence that a highly toxic pesticide used in holiday hotels in Asia to control bedbugs may have caused their deaths.
Coroner's Ruling on Deaths of Canadian Sisters on Thai Holiday Island Points to Deadly Gas
Tuesday, March 3, 2015
PHUKET: Sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger probably died on the Thai holiday island of Phi Phi from an unidentified substance present in pesticides, a Canadian coroner's investigation has ruled.
As many as 20 Western tourists have died in similar circumstances around Southeast Asia since 2009, according to coroner Renee Roussy, Canadian media reported.
...
Phosphine is one of few substances that can kill and leave little trace in the environment or in the body, according to the coroner's report.
''Phosphine is a pesticide that kills all that lives and all that breathes,'' states the report. The product is efficient, cheap and widely available in Asia.
Though phosphine fumigation in hotel rooms is forbidden in Thailand, the coroner says the product may still have been used.
''Science doesn't allow us to confirm this without a doubt,'' Roussy said. ''Maybe one day it will.''...
Quebec sisters? mysterious deaths at Thailand resort likely linked to pesticide, coroner says Graeme Hamilton | March 2, 2015 | Last Updated: Mar 2 5:31 PM ET
... Agents with Federal Bureau of Investigation, which has looked into unexplained deaths involving Western tourists, travelled to Ottawa in 2013 to help with the Belanger investigation, and they also believed that phosphine was responsible, Dr. Roussel said.
Her report calls on Quebec?s institute of public health to advise travellers of the lethal danger posed by some pesticides and to offer advice on how to detect symptoms of poisoning and treat it before it is too late...
"...there’s an obvious contest that’s happening between different sectors of the colonial ruling class in this country. And they would, if they could, lump us into their beef, their struggle." ---- Omali Yeshitela, African People’s Socialist Party
(My posts are not intended as advice or professional assessments of any kind.) Never forget Excalibur.
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