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Update: WHO team visits P4 lab in Wuhan Institute of Virology - February 2021

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  • JJackson
    replied
    I have spent some time reading your comments and following your links since my earlier post.
    While Flutrackers has always tried to stay away from the politics prior to this out break but the posts in the two threads I have taken exception to are at heart political and not science based. I may have been naive but I had assumed going into this pandemic that if posters had linked to these types of posts they would have done so with an explanation of why they were ridiculously political and not based on any rational examination of the data or science. I abhor censorship and propaganda and do not want to infringe on the right of anyone to say what they think but I know from what the regular commenters here have written in the past that most of you have a good understanding of what is possible and likely. I would recommend this Chatham House zoom meeting involving 3 of the SARS-CoV-2 origins team which was in the twitter links Mary provided as it clearly explains what the team did and what they found. It is impossible to prove there was no lab escape but it is the least likely of all the possible origins according to the team. I do not know where the claims of Gain-of-function experiments came from but to the best of my knowledge there were none and the team had no difficulty getting the data they asked for. They submit a list of all the places they wanted to visit and all the people they wanted to talk to and not one of them was blocked. The data that had been available on the WIV site, and was taken down, was due to 3000 attempts to hack the site and for no other reason.
    If anyone still thinks that the 1000 or so Chinese who compiled all the data they wanted, and all of the international team who reviewed it, were part of a conspiracy then short of psychiatric help I do not know what to suggest.
    Breggin's post is an example of the lunacy that seems to be prevalent.
    EcoHealth Alliance, have been heavily involved in conducting and funding the research that supported the work of Chinese researchers and the Wuhan Institute in making deadly coronaviruses in their labs.[4] That makes Daszak a major perpetrator in enabling China to make the virus that Daszak now attributes to an escape from bats in the wild.

    You might have to think that through because it boggles the mind. Peter Daszak, the man asked to prove that SARS-CoV-2 came from nature, is the same man who participated in both the research and the funding that enabled China to make SARS-CoV-2, which the Communists then released either by accident or intention.

    Daszak is a central figure in the collaboration funded by Anthony Fauci between the US and China to build pathological viruses.[5] We blew the whistle on April 15, 2020[6] and that quickly followed in days by President Donald Trump defunding the dangerous, treasonous project.
    He starts with an unfounded and libellous assertion and goes down hill from there - the man is a redacted.
    Last edited by JJackson; March 18, 2021, 12:49 PM.

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  • sharon sanders
    replied
    Originally posted by Emily View Post
    If the origin of SARS-CoV-2 were not important, discussion about this topic wouldn't be suppressed.

    "The great misfortune of science is that it has to be conducted by people." ---Peter R. Breggin M.D.


    https://breggin.com/the-lancet-covid...ow-to-science/
    I am guessing that Breggin's opinion would be considered "bizarre". Well....reading his bio....he appears to be qualified to have an opinion on psychiatry and all related subjects. As a medical doctor he would know something about science too.

    Do I agree with him on all of his points? No. Do his viewpoints run counter to the generally accepted mantra? Yes. Should FluTrackers cancel him? No.

    It is a public service to cover topics and opinions that are already widely disseminated. Ignoring opinions that we may not all agree on is counterproductive.

    Dr. Breggin appears to be promoting a new book. What else is new? How is that any different from the multitudes of others promoting something in this pandemic? If we do not discuss his bio, book release, opinion, etc. with our team of analysts, then the soundbites of his words become "larger than life". I do not know Dr. Breggin. I have no idea if he is correct or not, but I do know that if we ban any discussion about him, or anyone else who has a non-mantra opinion, then we are not doing "our job".
    Last edited by sharon sanders; March 18, 2021, 09:02 AM. Reason: typo

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  • Emily
    replied
    If the origin of SARS-CoV-2 were not important, discussion about this topic wouldn't be suppressed.

    "The great misfortune of science is that it has to be conducted by people." ---Peter R. Breggin M.D.


    Leave a comment:


  • sharon sanders
    commented on 's reply
    We have literally thousands of threads about the science of SARS-CoV-2 posted on the site. And the complaint is that we might ruin our "science and logic" reputation over TWO threads? If anything, we are concentrated on the science. https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/...ntific-library

  • Shiloh
    replied
    Amen.

    Leave a comment:


  • sharon sanders
    replied
    Originally posted by JJackson View Post
    This whole conspiracy theory thread, and the other lab escape thread, are getting more and more bizarre. Daszak is not a philosopher or politician he is an epidemiologist his original degree was in zoology and his PhD in parasitic infectious disease. He is the most obvious choice for a place on the team as his NGO has been at the forefront of work on zoonotic disease emergence and has been sampling the bats which carry sarbecovs which are the hosts for the disease under investigation. The fact that they have been working closely with Chinese researchers trying to identify the most likely candidates for exactly this kind of zoonotic event further cements him as THE person to include in a search for the viruses origins. You do not ship potentially dangerous viruses around the world when the world experts on working on the viruses in question are in the country where you found them. Ecohealth's funding was to collect viral samples, which they are specialists in, not to do the lab work on them which was the specialty of the Chinese BSL3 & 4 labs.
    I came to Flutrackers shortly after it opened as it was the one place on the internet where reasoned analysis based on the science could be found and it has continued to hold that position up until the start of this pandemic. Throughout the H1N1 pandemic, Ebola, H5N1, H7N9 etc. it has continued to operate on science and logic. The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic has sadly done serious damage to its reputation and the two threads I have highlighted are why, they are full of ridiculous MSN, and even less reputable sources, that have been posted by our members as if they have merit. It is with great sadness that I have felt its necessary right this post.
    Guess what? I do not care one ^$%& about our reputation. Do you see advertisements or donate buttons on this site? No. And why not? Because we are Independent Media. We post and analyze all sorts of information. That is what we do. Maybe the WSJ article is wrong...add them to the list of inaccurate main stream media reports. This Daszak fellow is a public person so discussing articles where he is mentioned is a valid topic.

    We are not going to shut down discussion about uncomfortable subjects. Look at some of the subjects we discussed and argued about in 2006....like whether migratory birds can spread disease, for instance. Some of those threads were very heated. If people could view us then, with all the wild internet modalities at that time, then they can certainly view us now as we are 1000 times more refined.

    We are not changing a thing. We have operated this way since 2006. Someone posts a study or media report and then we discuss it. If this ruins our reputation - so be it.

    Listen to me right now. We are going to remain the one media who is not bought. Whether people agree with some of the opinions expressed on this site, or not, at least they know we are earnestly searching for the truth.

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  • Vibrant62
    commented on 's reply
    I think Mary raises a valid point here. I also agree in large part with you JJackson - but there are confounding factors, in that during this pandemic, domestic and geo politics and science have become inextricably entwined in the media and within governments and health organisations the world over. This has been to the considerable detriment of the science. Unfortunately however, the reporting - even from mainstream media - reflects this, but I would suggest that it has been worth documenting here, just to at least get a 'big picture' view of what has been occurring. I am not entirely certain what is needed to sever the science and its reporting from the politics in the MSM, but I hope when the moratorium comes, important lessons are learned. Too many agenda's at play here on multiple levels, and a lack of transparency from some countries and leading health bodies keeps feeding and perpetuating this beast. Trust in the WHO, CDC etc etc is at an all time low right now as a consequence. There is also considerable fear at every levels within societies, no matter where they are, and often for different reasons.

    I wish that the media, in particular, would focus on the immediate problem. I am not sure that this focus on origins serves the world well, and my question is - does it really matter now? I am fairly certain that the potential risks of lab escapes are clear for all to see (should that be an origin) and that greater attention to BSL security is now probably standard the world over, and the evolution of large numbers of novel viruses in bats has also been clearly identified, giving us ample cause for concern and understanding that this wont be an isolated problem as we move forward in time, such that there will be a far greater focus on what can be done to prepare the world better and make us more able to contain and respond to pandemic threats as they arise. I very much doubt there is going to be an 'answer' ever or a smoking gun found, so we (as in the world) need to move on from this focus, and instead be bent towards finding solutions to the problems that Covid and SARS Cov 2 causes - this thing is a long way from being over yet, and we simply don't know what lies ahead. The world needs to unite and focus on that.

  • Mary Wilson
    commented on 's reply
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it is mainly an issue within the U.S., unfortunately.
    When we consider the reason for this, let us not forget the climate the U.S. was in at the start of the Coronavirus.
    Exclusive: U.S. slashed CDC staff inside China prior to coronavirus outbreak
    MARCH 25, 20205:26 PM UPDATED A YEAR AGO
    By Marisa Taylor

    -above article posted on Peter Daszak twitter page: https://twitter.com/PeterDaszak

  • JJackson
    replied
    This whole conspiracy theory thread, and the other lab escape thread, are getting more and more bizarre. Daszak is not a philosopher or politician he is an epidemiologist his original degree was in zoology and his PhD in parasitic infectious disease. He is the most obvious choice for a place on the team as his NGO has been at the forefront of work on zoonotic disease emergence and has been sampling the bats which carry sarbecovs which are the hosts for the disease under investigation. The fact that they have been working closely with Chinese researchers trying to identify the most likely candidates for exactly this kind of zoonotic event further cements him as THE person to include in a search for the viruses origins. You do not ship potentially dangerous viruses around the world when the world experts on working on the viruses in question are in the country where you found them. Ecohealth's funding was to collect viral samples, which they are specialists in, not to do the lab work on them which was the specialty of the Chinese BSL3 & 4 labs.
    I came to Flutrackers shortly after it opened as it was the one place on the internet where reasoned analysis based on the science could be found and it has continued to hold that position up until the start of this pandemic. Throughout the H1N1 pandemic, Ebola, H5N1, H7N9 etc. it has continued to operate on science and logic. The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic has sadly done serious damage to its reputation and the two threads I have highlighted are why, they are full of ridiculous MSN, and even less reputable sources, that have been posted by our members as if they have merit. It is with great sadness that I have felt its necessary right this post.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shiloh
    replied
    Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-chi...ns-11616004512

    How the WHO?s Hunt for Covid?s Origins Stumbled in China
    A team of scientists hoped a mission to Wuhan would provide some clarity about the coronavirus?s origins. New details about the team?s constraints reveal how little power it had to conduct a thorough probe.
    WHO-led team members investigating the coronavirus?s origins visit the closed Huanan seafood market in Wuhan, China, in January. hector retamal/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images

    WUHAN, China?More than a dozen foreign scientists led by the World Health Organization gathered with Chinese counterparts last month to vote on the question: How did the Covid-19 pandemic start?

    The show of hands came after a four-week joint study in the city where the first cases were identified, a mission many hoped would provide some clarity to a world craving answers.

    For a while, it appeared to. The vote?s results captured headlines: The virus probably jumped to humans from an animal; further research was needed on whether it spread on frozen food; a lab leak was ?extremely unlikely.?

    A month on, however, as the WHO-led team finalizes its full report on the Wuhan mission, a Wall Street Journal investigation has uncovered fresh details about the team?s formation and constraints that reveal how little power it had to conduct a thorough, impartial examination?and call into question the clarity its findings appeared to provide....

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  • bertrand789
    replied
    Mr Daznak est un professeur de philosophie et un politique. Je peut l'?crire, l'ayant montr? en ce lieu. Vu les r?gles de ce lieu , il n'a donc pas sa place, en ce lieu, et dans le cadre de l'expertise si ce n'est en temps que t?moin, assist? ou pas...

    Question ?tude de fonction, les vaccinations en oeuvre , ce n'est pas une forme de modification de fonction en grand sur les populations humaines ?

    Les C.D.C sont fait pour travailler ensemble et en confiance. Je consid?re , qu'? cause d'une fiert? mal plac? , le pr?sident chinois a diff?r? les ?bats. Il a la fonction de maitre du temps pour ce sujet. Mais ces ?bats , les premiers ? le souhaiter de mon point de vue sont les chinois . De plus , ce qui importe , pour les suites , c'est de voir comment le grand peuple va aborder toutes les suites.

    L'O.M.S , qui a ?t? ridicule du d?but de cette crise, ? ce jour, aurait du avoir le r?le de grand accoucheur . C'est ? dire que pour moi , son r?le devrait ?tre de permettre les ?bats, l'?mergence d'une expertise cr?dible et partag?e, permettant une sortie de crise par le haut , pour tous ...


    Je suis v?t?rinaire, je lis, en ce lieu, des travaux de consoeurs chinoises d'un niveau ?blouissant. Leur silence, sur ce dossier , est afligant et totalement m?prisant, et pour la fonction et pour les femmes .

    Elle est ou l'expertise v?t?rinaire chinoise , sign?e par qui ?



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  • Emily
    replied

    An upcoming report may soon shed light on the origins of the coronavirus that has wreaked havoc across the world, killing more than 2.6 million people, including around 530,000 in the United States.

    A year later, what do we know about the origins of the coronavirus?
    By Martin Finucane Globe Staff,Updated March 11, 2021, 2:37 p.m.
    ...
    Some critics have raised the possibility that the virus, rather than originating naturally, leaked from a research lab, and they?ve called for an independent investigation separate from the WHO-China report. Wuhan is home to the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    Dr. David A. Relman, a professor of medicine and microbiology at Stanford University, told The New York Times last week that ?based on what we know so far ... the WHO investigation appears to be biased, skewed, and insufficient.?...

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  • Emily
    commented on 's reply
    JJackson, if the US was funding this research, do you know why the lab work was done in Wuhan instead of the US? If it had been, there would be more transparency now. From what I understand, Obama banned GOF in 2014, then Trump lifted the ban in late 2017. Had the research already progressed to animal experiments by then that wouldn't meet humane standards in the US?

  • etudiant
    replied
    Irrespective of the merits of EcoHealth and of Peter Daszak, he is clearly very close the WHI.
    That makes him less than ideal as an independent investigator, because he is in effect investigating himself.
    Obviously the Taiwanese would highlight this for partisan reasons, but their concerns do have a point.
    Nor has China helped dispel these concerns, having sanitized the WHI files and the wet market in question well before allowing any out side scrutiny.

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  • JJackson
    commented on 's reply
    I strongly recommend everyone watch the TWiV linked to in this partisan report out of Taiwan as it clearly outlines all of the reasons EcoHealth Alliance keep getting funds from a range of US funding agencies. The work they do has been funded for very good reasons to do with the prevention of zoonotic emergence and disease in commercially important species. The rubbish about 'chimeric species' seems to be referring to attempts made to find broadly acting vaccines and therapeutics. This article is typical of anti-China propaganda coming out of Taiwan, Hong Kong and the US and should be viewed in that light. Daszak is listed as American, British by Wikipedia so presumably holds dual Nationality. Ecohealth Alliance collects samples from a range of animals in China and WIV does the lab work to sequence what is found this is a perfectly normal international collaboration, they do much the same work in about 30 countries on dozens of pathogens with zoonotic potential.
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