Update: WHO team visits P4 lab in Wuhan Institute of Virology - February 2021

[sharon sanders]

This whole conspiracy theory thread, and the other lab escape thread, are getting more and more bizarre. Daszak is not a philosopher or politician he is an epidemiologist his original degree was in zoology and his PhD in parasitic infectious disease. He is the most obvious choice for a place on the team as his NGO has been at the forefront of work on zoonotic disease emergence and has been sampling the bats which carry sarbecovs which are the hosts for the disease under investigation. The fact that they have been working closely with Chinese researchers trying to identify the most likely candidates for exactly this kind of zoonotic event further cements him as THE person to include in a search for the viruses origins. You do not ship potentially dangerous viruses around the world when the world experts on working on the viruses in question are in the country where you found them. Ecohealth's funding was to collect viral samples, which they are specialists in, not to do the lab work on them which was the specialty of the Chinese BSL3 & 4 labs.
I came to Flutrackers shortly after it opened as it was the one place on the internet where reasoned analysis based on the science could be found and it has continued to hold that position up until the start of this pandemic. Throughout the H1N1 pandemic, Ebola, H5N1, H7N9 etc. it has continued to operate on science and logic. The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic has sadly done serious damage to its reputation and the two threads I have highlighted are why, they are full of ridiculous MSN, and even less reputable sources, that have been posted by our members as if they have merit. It is with great sadness that I have felt its necessary right this post.

Guess what? I do not care one ^$%& about our reputation. Do you see advertisements or donate buttons on this site? No. And why not? Because we are Independent Media. We post and analyze all sorts of information. That is what we do. Maybe the WSJ article is wrong...add them to the list of inaccurate main stream media reports. This Daszak fellow is a public person so discussing articles where he is mentioned is a valid topic.

We are not going to shut down discussion about uncomfortable subjects. Look at some of the subjects we discussed and argued about in 2006....like whether migratory birds can spread disease, for instance. Some of those threads were very heated. If people could view us then, with all the wild internet modalities at that time, then they can certainly view us now as we are 1000 times more refined.

We are not changing a thing. We have operated this way since 2006. Someone posts a study or media report and then we discuss it. If this ruins our reputation - so be it.

Listen to me right now. We are going to remain the one media who is not bought. Whether people agree with some of the opinions expressed on this site, or not, at least they know we are earnestly searching for the truth.

[Shiloh]

Amen.

[sharon sanders]

We have literally thousands of threads about the science of SARS-CoV-2 posted on the site. And the complaint is that we might ruin our "science and logic" reputation over TWO threads? If anything, we are concentrated on the science. https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/...ntific-library

[Emily]

If the origin of SARS-CoV-2 were not important, discussion about this topic wouldn't be suppressed.

"The great misfortune of science is that it has to be conducted by people." ---Peter R. Breggin M.D.

https://breggin.com/the-lancet-covid-19-commission-a-mortal-blow-to-science/

[sharon sanders]

If the origin of SARS-CoV-2 were not important, discussion about this topic wouldn't be suppressed.

"The great misfortune of science is that it has to be conducted by people." ---Peter R. Breggin M.D.


https://breggin.com/the-lancet-covid...ow-to-science/

I am guessing that Breggin's opinion would be considered "bizarre". Well....reading his bio....he appears to be qualified to have an opinion on psychiatry and all related subjects. As a medical doctor he would know something about science too.

Do I agree with him on all of his points? No. Do his viewpoints run counter to the generally accepted mantra? Yes. Should FluTrackers cancel him? No.

It is a public service to cover topics and opinions that are already widely disseminated. Ignoring opinions that we may not all agree on is counterproductive.

Dr. Breggin appears to be promoting a new book. What else is new? How is that any different from the multitudes of others promoting something in this pandemic? If we do not discuss his bio, book release, opinion, etc. with our team of analysts, then the soundbites of his words become "larger than life". I do not know Dr. Breggin. I have no idea if he is correct or not, but I do know that if we ban any discussion about him, or anyone else who has a non-mantra opinion, then we are not doing "our job".

[JJackson]

I have spent some time reading your comments and following your links since my earlier post.
While Flutrackers has always tried to stay away from the politics prior to this out break but the posts in the two threads I have taken exception to are at heart political and not science based. I may have been naive but I had assumed going into this pandemic that if posters had linked to these types of posts they would have done so with an explanation of why they were ridiculously political and not based on any rational examination of the data or science. I abhor censorship and propaganda and do not want to infringe on the right of anyone to say what they think but I know from what the regular commenters here have written in the past that most of you have a good understanding of what is possible and likely. I would recommend this Chatham House zoom meeting involving 3 of the SARS-CoV-2 origins team which was in the twitter links Mary provided as it clearly explains what the team did and what they found. It is impossible to prove there was no lab escape but it is the least likely of all the possible origins according to the team. I do not know where the claims of Gain-of-function experiments came from but to the best of my knowledge there were none and the team had no difficulty getting the data they asked for. They submit a list of all the places they wanted to visit and all the people they wanted to talk to and not one of them was blocked. The data that had been available on the WIV site, and was taken down, was due to 3000 attempts to hack the site and for no other reason.
If anyone still thinks that the 1000 or so Chinese who compiled all the data they wanted, and all of the international team who reviewed it, were part of a conspiracy then short of psychiatric help I do not know what to suggest.
Breggin's post is an example of the lunacy that seems to be prevalent.

EcoHealth Alliance, have been heavily involved in conducting and funding the research that supported the work of Chinese researchers and the Wuhan Institute in making deadly coronaviruses in their labs.[4] That makes Daszak a major perpetrator in enabling China to make the virus that Daszak now attributes to an escape from bats in the wild.

You might have to think that through because it boggles the mind. Peter Daszak, the man asked to prove that SARS-CoV-2 came from nature, is the same man who participated in both the research and the funding that enabled China to make SARS-CoV-2, which the Communists then released either by accident or intention.

Daszak is a central figure in the collaboration funded by Anthony Fauci between the US and China to build pathological viruses.[5] We blew the whistle on April 15, 2020[6] and that quickly followed in days by President Donald Trump defunding the dangerous, treasonous project.

He starts with an unfounded and libellous assertion and goes down hill from there - the man is a redacted.

[sharon sanders]

I will say it again. My opinion about what and how China discloses their disease status is not based on any political bias. I do not know much about their political system but it appears to be an oligarchy. The US has gone down the drain and is apparently an oligarchy now too.

I do not believe anything unless I can get some independent verification. China does not willingly admit to "bad news" in their disease situations. This is my opinion after 15 years of following them. No politics necessary.

We can argue all we want about this on FluTrackers but the reality is that there will be a world court about this pandemic and we will see what is exposed then. Bottom line. It would be naive to think that are not cover-ups on many different levels. Sure there are. A lot of lives have been lost. And there will be hell to pay for it - around the world.

[etudiant]

I have spent some time reading your comments and following your links since my earlier post.
While Flutrackers has always tried to stay away from the politics prior to this out break but the posts in the two threads I have taken exception to are at heart political and not science based. I may have been naive but I had assumed going into this pandemic that if posters had linked to these types of posts they would have done so with an explanation of why they were ridiculously political and not based on any rational examination of the data or science. I abhor censorship and propaganda and do not want to infringe on the right of anyone to say what they think but I know from what the regular commenters here have written in the past that most of you have a good understanding of what is possible and likely. I would recommend this Chatham House zoom meeting involving 3 of the SARS-CoV-2 origins team which was in the twitter links Mary provided as it clearly explains what the team did and what they found. It is impossible to prove there was no lab escape but it is the least likely of all the possible origins according to the team. I do not know where the claims of Gain-of-function experiments came from but to the best of my knowledge there were none and the team had no difficulty getting the data they asked for. They submit a list of all the places they wanted to visit and all the people they wanted to talk to and not one of them was blocked. The data that had been available on the WIV site, and was taken down, was due to 3000 attempts to hack the site and for no other reason.
If anyone still thinks that the 1000 or so Chinese who compiled all the data they wanted, and all of the international team who reviewed it, were part of a conspiracy then short of psychiatric help I do not know what to suggest.
Breggin's post is an example of the lunacy that seems to be prevalent.

He starts with an unfounded and libellous assertion and goes down hill from there - the man is a redacted.

I have a problem reconciling the ChathamHouse Zoom discussion with the reality that China went the extra mile to sterilize the Wuhan wet markets as well as the WHI files some months previously.
It may be seen as a fully open discussion, but only after after all the potentially discrepant evidence has been disappeared.
Plus it seems disingenuous at best for China to object to being investigated when the outbreak clearly began in China.
All cases in other countries were from Chinese contacts. I assume that China looked hard for a counter example, but there were none.

I would note that if this site were prone to conspiracy theories, it would consider the possibility that this virus was just the test article, showing that China is vastly better positioned to handle a virus outbreak than any other country on earth. The really dangerous model would be the subsequent release.

[JJackson]

Etudiant re. "Plus it seems disingenuous at best for China to object to being investigated when the outbreak clearly began in China." No other country has ever had to be 'investigated' after it detected and reported a zoonotic outbreak within its boarders nor would they allow it. The world's nation states were careful to make sure the WHO could not do this, again if you interest in exactly what the WHO is allowed to do please see this thread. https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/...-reveres-posts post #1 and #12 being the most relevant.

Also consider the following hypothetical - a zoonotic event happened to occur in the US and the WHO put together an international team of experts to 'investigate' while the international press were howling that it was a US bio-weapons escape. The team included scientists from China, Russia, Iran, Cuba and Venezuela and were demanding free access to all military and civilian BSL facilities, personnel and documentation. How do you think the US, or any other country, would react? Even if it was couched as a fact finding mission with US scientist included I can not see the US being as accommodating as China has been.

[Emily]

JJackson, I don't understand your reference to the US military. Are you suggesting that the US DOD funding Eco Health led to this disaster being unleashed on the world, including China? https://www.usaspending.gov/recipien...ff0ca-P/latest

https://www.usaspending.gov/recipient/b4530532-4f85-c249-5fa5-0b86b6cff0ca-P/latest

[JJackson]

No I think DoD funding of Ecohealth alliance was an excellent investment in preventing zoonotic disease emergence and I applaud them for putting money where it is most likely to do some good. I would be grateful if you could explain on what basis you claim they did not clean the market and exactly what you meant by they left some red herrings and what possible reason you could have for adding "(or planted?)" which prima facie seems to be an accusation that someone falsified evidence which would be a serious crime. I am starting form the assumption that no one would accuse anybody else of falsifying evidence unless they had a good reason for doings so.

[Emily]

https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/

Why US outsourced bat virus research to Wuhan
US-funded $3.7 million project approved by Trump's Covid-19 guru Dr Anthony Fauci in 2015 after US ban imposed on 'monster-germ' research
by Christina Lin April 22, 2020

...
As such in October 2014, because of public health concerns, the US government banned all federal funding on efforts to weaponize three viruses ? influenza, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).
...
In the face of a moratorium in the US, Dr Anthony Fauci ? the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and currently the leading doctor in the US Coronavirus Task Force ? outsourced in 2015 the GOF research to China?s Wuhan lab and licensed the lab to continue receiving US government funding.

The Wuhan lab is now at the center of scrutiny for possibly releasing the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus and causing the global Covid-19 pandemic.

It is understandable that the Chinese lab likely struggled with safety issues given the fact US labs share similar problems, and indeed in January 2018 the US Embassy in Beijing sent cables warning about the safety of the Wuhan lab and asked for help.

Additionally, the embassy warned that researchers ?showed that various SARS-like coronaviruses can interact with ACE2, the human receptor identified for SARS-coronavirus,? meaning bat coronaviruses can be transmitted to humans to cause SARS-like diseases.
...
Nonetheless, it is unclear what the legal ramifications would be if the virus was indeed leaked from a Chinese lab, but as a result of a research project that was outsourced and funded by the US government.

Also, if there was a government ban in 2014 on federal funding being used for GOF research, what are the federal compliance and ethical issues surrounding the fact that the NIH still gave federal funding instead of private funding to the Wuhan lab to continue the experiments?

Moreover, could some strains of the coronavirus have originated in US labs, given the fact the US government lifted the ban in December 2017 on GOF research without resolving lab-safety issues?
...
The NSABB has given the HHS a framework to assess proposed research that would create pathogens with pandemic potential, such as research on genetically altering a virus to infect more species, or recreating a pathogen that has been eradicated in the wild, such as smallpox.

However, vaccine development and epidemiological surveillance do not automatically trigger an HHS review. In the postmortem of the Covid-19 pandemic, this is likely a dangerous loophole that could be exploited with no oversight, and should probably be brought under HHS review in order to protect public health better in the future.

[etudiant]

If this is a correct representation of the process, it does not seem sensible. Something deemed too dangerous for a US lab is outsourced to a recently built facility in China. This CDC decision is one of which they should be ashamed.
Separately, does anyone know what kind of lab animals were used to test these GOF virus constructs? There should have been documentation of the procedures based on the work done under US sponsorship.
One could imagine a lab worker selling used animals on the side to the nearby wet market.

[JJackson]

Etudiant this is not a correct representation of the process. What occurred is well documented in this thread.

https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/the-pandemic-discussion-forum/118157-man-made-h5n1-super-version

Mike Coston's AFD post can be found as post #138 and my reply at #139 in which I make my position regarding GOF clear.
In brief the NSABB in the US tried to censor the publication of two scientific paper in 2012, which they could do because they were part funded by NIH grants. This lead to a temporary halt in NIH funding of all GOF work and a voluntary halt on publication of such work while attempts were made to reach an international consensus on what should be publishable. After 8 years and many reviews the work was published in full and GOF funding has resumed but with some modification in the review of NIH grant application procedures.

[sharon sanders]

Also, once lab animals have been used, like dogs, for instance, they sometimes are adopted as family pets by lab workers, friends, etc. I am not saying this happened in this situation. I do not know.

Early on in the pandemic, in Hong Kong, there were documented instances where humans transmitted COVID-19 to their dog and cat. They were asymptomatic and apparently fully adapted.

Please see: HK: Pet cat/dog tests positive for COVID-19 virus

[Mary Wilson]

Years back (2000's) a family member had been working an a lab which received a U.S. government contract to work with Anthrax in their lab. He/She quit because of personal knowledge lab staff may not follow 100% necessary protocol to ensure the safety of the environment.
Human Error is all that it takes to create a bombshell.
__________________________________________________ _
Safety Precautions and Operating Procedures in an (A)BSL-4 Laboratory: 1. Biosafety Level 4 Suit Laboratory Suite Entry and Exit Procedures

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5092084/

__________________________________________________ __
Inside the Chinese lab poised to study world's most dangerous pathogens
January 2020

https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

[Mary Wilson]

JJackson commented, "Remind which country found smallpox in a locked cupboard."
The U.S. Just Found Some Rogue Smallpox In a Closet, No Big Deal
On Tuesday, the CDC announced that it found vials of a smallpox-causing virus in a lab's storage room.
JULY 8, 2014

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/the-us-just-found-some-rogue-smallpox-in-a-closet-no-big-deal/374101/

[sharon sanders]

JJackson - I am just stating the official standard for the US. I am not saying what happens in practice. I am not comparing the US to any other country. I am not an apologist for the US. Obviously labs in the US screw up and I am not paid to pretend it does not happen. I have no idea what China does or does not do, in practice, compared to international standards.

[sharon sanders]

JJackson commented
Today, 02:31 PM
Etudiant re. "Plus it seems disingenuous at best for China to object to being investigated when the outbreak clearly began in China." No other country has ever had to be 'investigated' after it detected and reported a zoonotic outbreak within its boarders nor would they allow it. The world's nation states were careful to make sure the WHO could not do this, again if you interest in exactly what the WHO is allowed to do please see this thread. https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/...-reveres-posts post #1 and #12 being the most relevant.

Also consider the following hypothetical - a zoonotic event happened to occur in the US and the WHO put together an international team of experts to 'investigate' while the international press were howling that it was a US bio-weapons escape. The team included scientists from China, Russia, Iran, Cuba and Venezuela and were demanding free access to all military and civilian BSL facilities, personnel and documentation. How do you think the US, or any other country, would react? Even if it was couched as a fact finding mission with US scientist included I can not see the US being as accommodating as China has been.

----------------------------------------------------------

JJackson - So you are implying that China sees the countries who are calling for an investigation as military & economic enemies? (regarding your reference to the US vs. "China, Russia, Iran, Cuba and Venezuela" above). Interesting.

This is not a political site. Please stop trying to connect the pandemic outbreak in China to anything political. I would be saying the same thing if the outbreak was in England, for instance. Let's get to the bottom of this so we can try to prevent it from happening again. Let's analyze the outbreak and initial response so it does not spread globally. What can we do better? Probably not hosting a dinner party for 40,000 people in Wuhan while the unknown pneumonia cases were growing exponentially in that city would be a start.

The world's general observation that the pandemic started in China is rational. Ask the Wuhan doctors who were called into the police station for revealing the unknown pneumonia cases if China is accommodating. Oh...that's right. Most of them are dead as far as I know.

And forget about deflecting any discussion about China to about how bad the US is. That is a different discussion. I suggested to you a long time ago that you start a thread about US lab escapes. Go for it. It will not change anything about the China discussion.

[JJackson]

JJackson - So you are implying that China sees the countries who are calling for an investigation as military & economic enemies? Yes - given the statements from the the US president and intelligence agencies and the vitriol in the media should they not be very wary of the motives of any outside investigation in to the origins of this zoonotic emergence. The attempts to try and blame it on the WIV should make them skeptical of the motives of their cold war opponents. All I am trying to do is to make sure this debate is evidence based and not based on the assumption that China's scientists and investigations are less trust worthy than their peers in other countries.
What can we do better? Not make unsubstantiated accusations about gain of function experiments or lab escapes but let the team on the ground perform their outbreak origins investigation focused on what they think are the more likely chain of events. Not pull funding on the research into the viral host reservoir and its animal and human interface.
Mass gatherings, like the banquet, were stupid but have nothing to do with how the virus got from bats to humans and are outside of the scope of the origins question.

[sharon sanders]

There is not much available evidence left after a year and you know this. I do not care what any politicians or "deep state" think. I do not trust anything from any government, and that includes China, unless I can see some independent data. The type of work being performed at the China labs is known by their own submissions to journals over a period of years. This is a historical record. Just stop with your illogical fighting all over the site.

[JJackson]

Sharon I do not accept that my post are illogical. If they have become political that is down to the political nature of many of the re-posted articles being of a political and not science or data based nature. If the site is genuinely not going to allow censorship then I am going to continue to counter any biased or ill informed posts that other members make. Post that begin it is possible that, or other wild speculation about lab escapes or nefarious undocumented gain-of-function need to be backed by some kind of evidence or I will counter them. If you want to ban me or censor my posts you can but I hope you will stop others from posting such claims unless they have at least some reasonable logic or data to back them up.

[Emily]

If this is a correct representation of the process, it does not seem sensible. Something deemed too dangerous for a US lab is outsourced to a recently built facility in China. This CDC decision is one of which they should be ashamed.
Separately, does anyone know what kind of lab animals were used to test these GOF virus constructs? There should have been documentation of the procedures based on the work done under US sponsorship.
One could imagine a lab worker selling used animals on the side to the nearby wet market.

Most likely non-human primates. Viruses are routinely shipped around the world in spite of safety and national security concerns. But shipping a primate colony involved in this type of research is another thing. That and cost factors are probably why the project wasn't moved back to the US once GOF got the green light again. I don't think there is transparency as there should be about the experiments given that they are NIH funded.
https://blog.whitecoatwaste.org/wp-c...ch-15-2021.pdf
https://tennesseestar.com/2021/03/17...laint-alleges/

https://besacenter.org/perspectives-...ovid19-origin/
Where Did COVID-19 Really Come From?
By Lt. Col. (res.) Dr. Dany Shoham July 28, 2020
Lt. Col. (res.) Dr. Dany Shoham, a microbiologist and an expert on chemical and biological warfare in the Middle East, is a senior research associate at the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies. He is a former senior intelligence analyst in the IDF and the Israeli Defense Ministry.

BESA Center Perspectives Paper No. 1,664, July 28, 2020

....
One possibility, then, is that a wild-type virus was first propagated repeatedly in human tissue cultures, and the resulting spontaneously upgraded virus was subsequently used to experimentally infect monkeys or ferrets?one of which then accidentally infected a person in the lab. (The WIV has long been routinely supplied with rhesus monkeys from the Macaque Breeding Base in Suizhou City.)

[JJackson]

One possibility is that this was a genetically engineered virus made by extraterrestrials prior to an invasion of the earth. Not a very likely possibility and not based on a shred of evidence much like that of Dany Shoham.

No drug or vaccine can get licensed without going through safety trials in mammalian hosts (normally mice or ferrets) and then primates. All countries that produce therapeutics have breeders who supply these animals. If you do not want animals used for this purpose then there will not be any safe therapeutics.

[sharon sanders]

bump this

[sharon sanders]

JJackson commented
Today, 08:20 AM
One possibility is that this was a genetically engineered virus made by extraterrestrials prior to an invasion of the earth. Not a very likely possibility and not based on a shred of evidence much like that of Dany Shoham.

No drug or vaccine can get licensed without going through safety trials in mammalian hosts (normally mice or ferrets) and then primates. All countries that produce therapeutics have breeders who supply these animals. If you do not want animals used for this purpose then there will not be any safe therapeutics.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop with the extraterrestrials talk. This is a warning. Honestly...ridiculous...you are the one "ruining" the reputation of FluTrackers....

[JJackson]

And Emily's post by Shoham isn't? All I am doing is trying to bring some rationality to this debate. The ET comment is just to show anybody can make a ridiculous statement pulled out of thin air based on absolutely no evidence why should one be taken of any more value than the other. Keep the posts rational and I will stop trying to show how absurd and worthless they are.

[sharon sanders]

The proper way to refute an opinion that you do not like is to do something like link to the person's resume. Then people can judge for themselves. For instance here is D. Shoham credentials on one internet site: https://idsa.in/profile/DanyShoham

Just because you do not like an opinion does not make it irrational. Stop with the politics and ridiculous deflections.

[Pathfinder]

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Zhao Lijian's Regular Press Conference on March 19, 2021
...
The Paper: Peter Ben Embarek, head of the WHO origin-tracing mission to China, said in interviews on March 18 that the team hopes the report, now totaling some 280 pages, will be ready for release next week. The "fine-tuning of the text" has centered on scientific issues, while some English-Chinese translation issues were "taking a lot of time," he said. Has China received the text of the report? Do you agree with the content? When is China going to give its assessment and feedback?

Zhao Lijian: I understand the work related to the report has been carried out among Chinese and international experts. On March 16, a WHO administrative official said that the report on origin-tracing would be released next week. We immediately checked with relevant parties. To my knowledge, Chinese experts received an English version of the report from WHO experts on March 17, totaling around 300 pages. As we speak, there is no Chinese version available yet. WHO is still working on the translation. With respect to the specific content of the report, I'm not aware of it. Whether the report will be released next week depends on the discussions between Chinese and foreign experts.

As for the main conclusions, findings and suggestions of this joint mission on origin-tracing, Chinese and WHO experts already made them public at a joint press conference on February 9. I want to stress that origin-tracing is a scientific issue that should be studied by the science community.
...

https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/2511_665403/t1862637.shtml